Christianity
Posts  1 - 12  of  12
Wayne2323
Is there any way to know if you have blasphemed the holy ghost
Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  Wayne2323
driveshaft
Replied to:  Is there any way to know if you have blasphemed the...
If you have love in your heart and you not intentionally curse the holy spirit i think you are probably alright with g-d. the lord knows what's in your heart.
Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  Wayne2323
jimhsan
Replied to:  Is there any way to know if you have blasphemed the...
To blaspheme is to speak irreverently about the sacred. The way that 'Holy Ghost' is used, means most closely, an angel (messenger) of Yahweh. As messengers, they carry authority that is not theirs, but that belongs to the One God. Sometimes they appear as ordinary humans who have a warm, positive feeling about them, and they can appear and disappear out of nothingness. These are guardian angels. Others can see them, they can eat, and so on. But you may sense that something is very different about them; like Abraham did in Genesis 18 when three came to his tent. One of them became Yahweh, to tell him about the destruction of Sodom, where his cousin Lot lived, some distance away. When you are in the presence of Yahweh, you KNOW it. They often can talk with you in a vision or dream, and instruct you, or heal you; and then wake you with a 'heavenly voice' that is loud and clear and very different than a normal voice; as if the whole sky or wall inside was a giant speaker, and the Voice was coming from a vast area, with the feeling of the ambient sound of a waterfall or a multitude of people all together. This is very, very very impressively powerful. Sometimes a Voice will warn you of a danger ahead, when you are walking or driving a car. It is absolutely unmistakable. Usually the Voice will only say a very few words, or if you are asleep and they came to instruct you in your sleep, the Voice will awaken you by calling your name. Read the OT carefully and you can find where this is mentioned; and how you can ask the Creator for knowledge, and he sends messengers to inform you while you sleep. This is mentioned in one or two psalms; and by Moses in the first five books of the bible, and by other prophets such as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and the other prophets in the shorter books at the end of the OT (old testament). Jesus mentions the same things, but with less explanation, and using different terms such as 'comforter' or 'advocate'. Messengers can do just about anything, from appearing as normal humans, to being an invisible but extremely powerful Presence that you can talk with when awake, or in visions or dreams. They definitely are Holy, and they can be as solid or as ghostlike as they please, which is probably where the name 'Holy Ghost' comes from. But they are definitely not the ghosts of dead people; and they have nothing to do with ghosts of dead people, which is a violation of the Law, as when someone consults a trance medium in a seance to talk with the dead (as when king Saul did this with the 'witch of Endor' in 1 Samuel.) But Holy Ghost is nothing like that, not at all; that's why, I suppose, that most people like to say, 'Holy Spirit' instead of 'Holy Ghost'. This is a messenger of the Supreme Creator, and sometimes they come two or three at a time. How and why they do what they do, is up to them and the One that sent them. I had an experience with them when I was about 5 years old, and the memory is still as vivid as if it was yesterday.

Some people say that thinking about such an experience as that, attracts them. If they are nearby, you KNOW it. I once went to a concert with a girl who had a lot of experiences with them, and I insisted that she tell me about it, though she did not want to do so, because it is so powerful. But, I was very curious about it, and these Holy Ones did come close, invisibly, while we were driving at night. She paused and asked me what I felt — it was a powerful feeling, unlike anything I had ever felt before in my life; or if it resembled a feeling, it was 20 or 30 times more powerful than anything I had ever experienced before. It was so extreme and different, that it took about a week until I even found words to describe it. It is entirely different than what some people think it is, during revivals when people are jumping and singing and dancing wildly. This was entirely different than that.

Here's one description, that includes a strict warning that is surely what Jesus was describing with the 'unforgivable sin'('he will not pardon your transgressions, for my-Name is in him'):
-----------------------------------------
Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send a messenger before you, to keep you on
the way, and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
Exodus 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, do not provoke him; for
he will not pardon your(p) transgressions, for my-Name is in him.
Exodus 23:22 But if you will indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak;
then I will be an enemy to your enemies, and an adversary to your
adversaries.
Exodus 23:23 For a my-messenger will go before you, and bring you in
to the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the
Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
Exodus 23:27 I will send my-Dread before you, and will destroy all the
people to whom you will come, and I will make all your
enemies turn their backs to you. …
-----------------------------------------

The golden calf was a sin that Moses's atonement could not forgive. The scroll is also called the 'book of remembrance', and it is mentioned several places; it is the names that will enter the 'world to come' with the Christ-Messiah. Blotting out your name, is cutting you off from the Christ and paradise. However if you repent and be humble and keep his Law, he will eventually turn back to you again; but not with only a prayer and dollar in the donation plate; it has to be wholehearted. This book of remembrance is in: Isaiah 4:3; Ezekiel 9:3-6; Daniel 7:9-10; 12:1-4; Malachi 3:16-17; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26. The son of man coming in the clouds with glory with the angels, is when mankind is judged, when you want your name to be there in the book. THAT is what happens when you commit unforgivable sin, and do not humble yourself and turn again to the Law of Yahweh, and have him turn again to you, and put your name back in the book of remembrance.

Do you think that the serpent went on vacation after tempting Adam and Eve? No such luck. Ever wonder why the name Yahweh (and Yah, and Elohim) is replaced in the bible with the generic 'God' and 'the Lord'? Some people guess that it is to show reverence. That is silly. No name has more reverence than Yahweh; but 'Lord' is a title used for evil little kings, or for servants that have a bit more authority than other servants. Jews and Christians both teach that we should not use 'Yahweh'. BUT at the Judgement, if we are ashamed to use his Name, why won't he be ashamed to call our name? Maybe that's what Jesus was getting at:
-----
Luke 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him
will the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes on his own
before his Father's glory, and before the holy messengers.
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said: My doctrine is not mine, but
his that sent me.
John 14:24 He who does not love me, does not keep my sayings: and the
word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.
-----
'My sayings' is the Law of Moses, the doctrine of Yahweh who sent Jesus. Jesus says it is eternal, several times. Only the antichrist would say that Jesus did away with the Law.
-----
Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for the least
stroke of a pen in the Law to fail.
-----
-----------------------------------------
Exodus 32:30-35 And it came to pass on the next day, that Moses said to the
people, you(p) have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up to
YHWH; perhaps I can make an atonement for your(p) sin.
Exodus 32:31 And Moses returned to YHWH, and said: This people
has sinned a great sin, and they have made an elohim-of-gold.
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if you will, forgive their sin; and if not, blot
me, please, out of your scroll which you have written.
Exodus 32:33 And YHWH said to Moses: whoever has sinned against
me, I will blot him out of my scroll.
Exodus 32:34 Therefore now go, lead the people to the place of which I
have spoken to you: behold, my-messenger will go before you;
nevertheless in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.
Exodus 32:35 And YHWH plagued the people, because they made the calf
which Aaron made.
-----------------------------------------

Disobedience and idolatry are the sins that are not forgiven, when the sinner refuses to repent and turn back to the Law. Idolatry is more subtle than we imagine. The second commandment says not to put other elohim (gods) or images before Yahweh; Genesis 1:26 says that mankind is an image of Elohim; when we go to humans instead of to Yahweh, we put a human, who is an image of Elohim, before Yahweh to violate the second commandment with idolatry. This happens when we trust others to give us doctrines and beliefs, instead of going directly to Yahweh's words. Beware. Idolatry is believing man-made things, such as 'statements of faith' and doctrines that well-intentioned people put together to believe as if God said them. I'm wary of churches and congregations, whether Jewish or Christian. Nor do I trust my logic; isn't that what the serpent used, to deceive Adam and Eve? If Yahweh says, 'do it', then I try to 'do it'. As Jesus said, let your speech be yes, yes, and no, no. Anything beyond that comes from the Evil One.


An unforgivable sin, is one that cannot be forgiven with any simple atonement. If an angel of Yahweh appears to you and gives you a command, it is unforgivable to disobey; only Yahweh can forgive such a sin. The messengers he sends are like policemen; policemen cannot forgive your crime; the judge has to do that, the policeman is not a judge who can decide guilt or innocence. Are unforgivable sins really unforgivable? All things are possible to Yahweh our Elohim.
Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  Wayne2323
Jet3
Replied to:  Is there any way to know if you have blasphemed the...
If memory is serves, the Bible says if one blasphemes the Holy Ghost, one goes to Hell. This is a hard way to know, and maybe cannot be undone.
Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  jimhsan
Yoda55
Replied to:  To blaspheme is to speak irreverently about the sacred. The way...
Man, in and of his own thoughts, words, and actions CANNOT obviate the Sin he commits (check out the letters of Paul to the Gentile churches). Only God can act to forgive.

The Hebrew nation has been accorded a preliminary to atonement - the Laws. But, the Laws do not remit Sin - they only convict. Adherents will be judged according to their faithfulness. The Laws have been given as a placeholder to the Messiah's death and resurrection, where death has been conquered. Abraham was given a covenant (a contract which could only be dissolved by the death of either party to this contract), which made the Hebrews favored by God above all other nations (pagans = Gentiles) BECAUSE OF THEIR BELIEF.

Jesus came to fulfill the prophesies for the redemption of mankind, an act of Grace by God. First, He approached the Hebrews - and was rejected as fraud. His disciples were sent to teach others, selecting Saul of Tarsus (apostle Paul) as one to approach the Gentiles. Jesus' death and resurrection has dissolved the NEED for the Law to govern men. His selfless love has provided a way for all to be saved - all a person has to do is believe in Christ's words and actions.

Love is reciprocal, although Agape doesn't expect a return - but God wants us to love Him back. The depth of His love has been demonstrated.

If one believes in Jesus' fulfillment of prophesy (as the savior), and through prayers is contrite in recognizing one's propensity for Sin, then that person IS FORGIVEN and has the hope of seeing God face-to-face. This is possible only in that the sinner is seen by God through the perfect lens of Jesus. Because Jesus was without Sin and was/is righteous, human believers are assured of passing through physical death into heaven (into the presence of God).

A believer, who hasn't yet placed all trust in God, will have doubts - and he will falter. A believer who turns his back on his saving faith will falter. Sins committed without trusting in Jesus' Grace will be guilty of them. Any guilty will stand alone, prosecuted by Satan at the Final Judgment. They will be found unsaved, and will be thrown into Hell with Satan and his demons.

The gift is available. Those who take up follow Truth (and place God first). Those who let it sit do not follow Truth (and place themselves first). Those denying Truth will suffer the consequences of the choice.
Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  Yoda55
jimhsan
Replied to:  Man, in and of his own thoughts, words, and actions CANNOT...
I don't think we can do much more than to obey what Yahweh commands; he calls that love; and we know that's the type of love he wants.

The OT says that blood sacrifice is not needed for forgiveness ('I desire compassion and not sacrifice'). This is said dozens of times. Of course there is forgiveness, but only for those who regret (repent) of their ways, and are not stubborn, who then turn back to Yahweh our Elohim; and they are forgiven. That also is said dozens of times, with numerous lengthy explanations. However, Paul of Tarsus, who you may be quoting, is neither accurate nor truthful about this in his epistles. If someone sins against me personally, I may require some additional payment for damages; that is part of the Law, and is very reasonable. If someone sins against Yahweh, they can repent and turn back to him (even if they backslide later). He is slow to anger and quick to forgive, but he does not forgive those who are set in their ways and do not regret their transgressions. This has always been true. It is stated again and again in the Law and Prophets. He wants obedience, and admission of errors, and a full recommitment turning back to him; and the sins are forgotten by him as if they never were.
=======

I sense a few ambiguous terms here, such as faith or belief. Abraham believed Yahweh, because he obeyed the Law of Yahweh. The scripture says so; there is no 'belief' apart from obedience for Yahweh and his Law. If you do not obey, that is not what Yahweh wants or accepts, and it is not love.

Perhaps, you may be putting Paul's teaching above Jesus and Yahweh. You can do that, of course. But then, Paul becomes your most important authority, overruling the Law and Prophets (which overrules Jesus, who was described by others as a Prophet, and who described himself as a prophet); and then you put the apostolic tradition as greater than Jesus' teaching and the Law and Prophets. Jesus teaching wholeheartedly supported the Mosaic Law and Prophets (whereas Paul rejects the same).

Personally, my authority, my teacher, my pope, is Yahweh. If Yahweh says 'do this', I endeavor to do it. Probably my orientation is more that of an Ebionite than that of Jews or Christians or humanistic naturalists. As I see it, that means I love Yahweh, because I keep his Instructions, as both Moses and Jesus say. ('Instructions' means: Commands; Word; Law; Ordinances; Judgments; mitzvoth).

One caveat: What man-made tradition adds to the Law and Prophets is foreign to it. This includes both apostolic tradition and rabbinical (talmud) tradition. (As Isaiah says, does the axe raise itself up and swing the lumberjack against the trees? Created beings such as humans cannot change or add to the sacred word; we are common and not sacred.)

Another caveat: My only truth is what the Supreme One actually says through his prophets, which is very often different from what people think he has said in scriptures, or what commentary says. Jesus' disciples and apostles were not prophets, except for the book of Revelation (it isn't clear to me if John of Patmos was the same as John as the apostle). As Jesus says:
-----
Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for the least
stroke of a pen in the Law to fail.
Luke 16:19-31 [parable re: Law and Prophets versus rising from the dead]
Luke 16:29 … They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them.
Luke 16:31 … If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
[He is not referring to Jews only; rising from the dead is not a teaching for Jews]
Matthew 16:9 Do you not yet understand, nor remember the five loaves of
the 5000, and how many baskets you took up? [5 loaves = 5 books of Moses. i.e. the Mosaic Law, or 'Chumash' which means literally 'the five']
Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly
Father has not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mark 7:6 He answered and said to them: Well has Isaiah prophesied of
you hypocrites; as it is written: This people honors me with
their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mark 7:7 And, in vain they worship me, teaching the tradition
of men as if it was a commandment.
Mark 7:8 For by laying aside the Commandment of God, you hold to
the tradition of men, …
John 14:15 If you love me, obey my Commandments.
John 14:21 He that has my Commandments and obeys them, he is the one
who loves me, and he who loves me will be loved by my Father,
and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him: If a man loves me, he will
obey my Words: and my Father will love him, …
John 14:24 He who does not love me, does not keep my Sayings: and the
Word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say to you, Till the heavens and Earth pass away, one
dot or one stroke will surely not pass from the Law, till all be
fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore will break one of these least
Commandments, and will teach men so, he will be called the
least in the kingdom of the heavens: but whoever will do and
teach them, the same will be called great in the kingdom of
the heavens.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into
the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father
which is in heaven.
-----

Jesus clearly supported the Law and Prophets, as did Moses. He stated also that the Law was eternal; and John 14 does say that if someone loves Jesus, he will obey the Law.

Paul of Tarsus (I could quote a dozen verses) scorns the Law, and says that he is above the Law. I can only assume that the 'Lord' of Jesus of the gospels, is not the 'Lord' of Paul of Tarsus.

Have you ever seen a list that compares the teachings of Paul of Tarsus, with the teachings of Jesus of the gospels? I do not know your background, but I'd venture that you have never seen such a list; and I think I know why. I tried making a list, and found nothing but sharp contradictions between what Jesus says, and what Paul says. I found 80 examples so far; and these are not minor. Paul does indeed seem to be the anti-Jesus. Perhaps that's why we find:
---
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the prince of
this world comes, and has nothing on me.
1 John 4:3 And … this is that spirit of
antichrist, that you have heard said that he must come; and
even now he is already in the world.
---
When John wrote the above, Paul of Tarsus was 'already in the world'.

All through the OT, Yahweh is called Yahweh, with several hundred variations added to the Name. But both Jews and Christians have substituted 'Lord' for 'Yahweh'. There seems to be a reason for this; the Evil One did not retire after the garden of Eden, nor did he close up shop after tempting Jesus. In fact, he only stopped for a 'season':
---
Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed
from him for a season.
---
And, perhaps that 'season' was over, when Jesus entreated that the cup of wrath be taken from his hand. I'd humbly suggest that we, each of us, consider that perhaps the Evil One made an offer, of the sort made against Job by him, that neither Jesus nor his Father could decline so that he could have his way with us until almost the very end. (The 'cup of wrath' occurs often in OT prophecy. Look up its usage. I was taught that it was 'crucifixion'. I don't think so, because of its usage.) Both Moses and Jesus said that when they left, their followers would abandon truth and violate mindlessly and corrupt everything. Peter was the head of the church of Jesus, uncorrupted, for about three verses; then Peter opened his mouth, and Jesus said: "Get thee behind me, Satan". If that is true of the head of the Church, how much more so, for the rest of apostolic tradition? Wasn't it enough of a hint, that Peter further denied him three times before dawn? Or does it take four times before we get very concerned and take a close look, and open our eyes? (insert 'dramatic irony' smiley here) Jesus was capable of sarcasm to make a point. So were other prophets.

==========
That habit of Jews and Christians substituting 'Lord' for Yahweh, is very possibly dangerous. There's about six or so mentions of a 'Book (scroll) of Remembrance'. There's also a saying about being ashamed of his Name; Yahweh, dozens of times, said that his chosen ones know him as Yahweh (I can supply you with a list). If you are too uncomfortable to call Yahweh by his Name, then what if Yahweh is too uncomfortable to call your name from the book for the world to come? That sounds like a trap for those who do not pursue knowledge of Yahweh's Word. Nowhere does his Word say to avoid naming his Name.

Or, do you think any old title will do?

'Lord' is used as a title for everyone with the least bit of authority, regardless of whether they are good or evil; servants are even addressed at times that way; so are kings, whether good or bad. So consider this pair of verses, and how substituting 'prince' for 'lord' is both acceptable, and possibly a very grand deception:
---
Ephesians 2:2 In which in time past you walked according to the course of
this world, according to the Prince of the power of the air, the
spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain will be caught up
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so
will we ever be with the Lord.
---
Genesis 24:10 And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his-lord …
Genesis 24:15 And … behold, Rebekah came out …
Genesis 24:18 And she said: Drink, my-lord, …
---
Please consider: If Rebekah calls Abraham's servant 'lord', the Prince of the power of the air can be called 'lord'. (All ancient languages made no distinction between upper and lower case letters, as between 'Lord' and 'lord'.) Paul mentions the evil Prince, or Lord of the power of the air for no particular reason; then he is entreating his followers to meet a Lord in the air forever. And somewhere along the line, no one has noticed the many mentions of the obedient (meek, humble) inheriting the Earth with the Messiah/Christ (e.g. Psalm 37 and Matthew sermon on the mount, chapters 5-7). If the ones who are good are the ones who stay to inherit the Earth, just who do you think they are, who are leaving Earth? Perhaps those who are as foolish as Adam and Eve for believing the serpent? Those so blind, that they read in Matthew 24 how Jesus says not to go running off after false prophets, those who are anointed (i.e. chosen, for good or evil; 'Christ' and 'Messiah' mean 'anointed'; all kings and prophets were anointed, and, if you have studied biblical Hebrew, you know that a lot of people were (and are) 'messiah' (mashiach, or christ). Besides kings and prophets, the high priest was also a Messiah, and likely every popular evangelist. (Check an interlinear Hebrew-English translation, there's several available on the web for free.)

Jesus and a dozen, more or less, prophets say to hunker down and close your doors and hide on that last day. If some impressive being asks you to go out and line up so you can meet the Lord in the air, you may do well to wait and consider very carefully, long beforehand. Waiting until the last minute might be too late. However, you can pray and demand that the Messiah/Christ/Anointed-of-Yahweh personally give you advice on this. Or, by default, you can go to perdition with the big crowd of believers, 'for narrow is the gate that leads to life, and few indeed are they who find it'.
=======

Is Paul really that famous antichrist? Check this out:
---
John 13:21 When Jesus had said this, he was troubled in spirit, and testified
and said: Verily, verily, I say to you, that one of you will betray me.
John 13:26 Jesus answered: It is the one to whom I will give bread, when I
have dipped it. And when he had dipped the bread, he gave it to
Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
John 13:27 And after taking the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus
said to him: What you would do, do quickly.
---
This is the 'Last Supper'. In attendance were Jesus and the twelve; and in verse 27, Satan joins them briefly. These 14 (including Satan) were the only ones at the Last Supper.

Later, there is someone who says he was there at the Last Supper, and moreover, received the bread of betrayal from Jesus. This can only be one person. Please consider who is speaking here:
---
1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered
to you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was
betrayed took bread:
---
If he was the antichrist, he would have gotten what should have been a fatal wound in the head, from which he miraculously recovered; compare Acts 9 with Revelation 13:
---
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;
and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered at
the beast.
Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding count
the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and his number
is 666.
---
Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor
drank.
Acts 9:11 And the Lord said to him: Arise, and go into the street
which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas
for one called Saul of Tarsus; for, behold, he prays,
---
('house of Judas'??) In Wikipedia/Paul the Apostle/Conversion and mission:

"Paul's conversion can be dated to 31 – 36 by his reference to it in one of his letters."
We can only say for certain, that a first full year after his conversion was 37 CE or before. It is popular, though technically not correct, to call the 'number of the beast' six-six-six, because our familiar positional notation was not developed until ten centuries later. However, (6 + 6 + 6) x 37 = 666. So, does anyone else qualify for antichrist besides Paul?
=======

But, do try to compare teachings of Jesus and Paul. Maybe I overlooked something. But those few indications I mentioned above, are only the tip of the iceberg.
Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  jimhsan
Yoda55
Replied to:  I don't think we can do much more than to obey...
One chunk at a time...

jimhsan wrote: "I don't think we can do much more than to obey what Yahweh commands...type of love he wants."

JOHN 14:21 (both NKJV and ESV, which you cite later) = “Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” God is asking us to love Him as He loves us - reciprocation. Now, if this love is meant to be identical, and your suggestion is our love is equated with obedience, then does that mean that God is supposed to be obedient to us? No. Love is the compassion which is willing to do anything for another individual (even at risk to one’s own life), that the other will be protected from a threat to well-being… JOHN 15:12 = “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Here, again, we’re not speaking about “obey”, but rather to have compassion.
Now try HOSEA 6:6 (quoted here from the ESV, emphasis added) = “For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.”… To fail to love God as a Father is to call Him Master. Islam treats God as Master, to be obeyed, who acts somewhat capriciously. But, that’s as far as their relationship goes. They look to reward, not to love… They stem from the family of Abraham (Ishmael, through Sarah’s slave Hagar), but not in direct promise from God. Ishmael was Sarah’s desire for a son through Hagar and Abraham – in contradiction to God’s promise. Even so, Hagar was promised that she and her son would not die (when driven into the wilderness), and that God would increase her son’s lineage… Doesn’t that sound like love?... God loves to build, and is angered by having to destroy…

jimhsan wrote: "The OT says that blood sacrifice is not needed for forgiveness ('I desire compassion and not sacrifice'). This is said dozens of times."

That quotation is difficult to find (particularly OT), but is similar to NT MATTHEW 12:7 (“I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.”). I’m still looking for your particular quoted phrasing dozens of times, but I will concede to PSALMS 51:16-17 in its essence.

jimhsan wrote: "Of course there is forgiveness, but only for those who regret ... also is said dozens of times, with numerous lengthy explanations."

Yes, agreed.
Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  jimhsan
Yoda55
Replied to:  I don't think we can do much more than to obey...
Jimhsan wrote: "However, Paul of Tarsus, who you may be quoting, is neither accurate nor truthful about this in his epistles."

Saul of Tarsus (Apostle Paul, Roman citizen) was originally a Pharisee in the Hebrew faith. He was tasked, by the Sanhedrin through letters of Marque (see ACTS 9:1-2), with seeking out and bringing to heal those spreading Jesus’ teaching (as blasphemies against the faith of Israel). He was successful, inciting and witnessing the stoning of the Apostle Stephan. Upon conversion, Saul (now Paul) was sent to speak to those very same Gentiles of the message which Jesus aimed at them… God’s message will not be stopped, even by misguided Hebrews.

jimhsan wrote: "If someone sins against me personally, I may require some additional payment ... It is stated again and again in the Law and Prophets. He wants obedience, and admission of errors, and a full recommitment turning back to him; and the sins are forgotten by him as if they never were."

The Hebrews (prior to Moses) had rules of behavior imparted through the Patriarchs (through Abraham, Isaac, to Jacob). The Law, handed in a tangible manner to Moses, forms the basis of the Hebrew religion. The Hebrews will be saved “through the Law”, according to their (degree of) adherence to it in thought, word, and deed. The Hebrew tenacious pursuit of these rules and forms (and the single God, as referred to as YHWH) is what made them first among nations.
All other people are Gentile – separated from God because of misdirected foci. Jesus came to remind the Hebrew leadership that behavior “form” is not the only thing required. He made it clear that the heart (the seat of our motivations) must also be active in reading and doing God’s will… The Gentiles, not being hereditarily born into the family of Abraham, are outside this special dispensation. If God was to provide salvation for them, then another approach would be required. God requires blood payment for Sin – the Hebrew sacrifices were the outward manifestations of this, even though that’s not what God really wants from them. What way could God provide salvation for the Gentiles? If He came to live among us (in bodily form), then physically dying, would be the means. Jesus’ sacrifice (of Himself), if the Gentile believes that this death and resurrection remits all his sins, pays for the disobedience of the Gentile. A Gentile who refuses to accept this is usually labeled “agnostic’, ‘atheist’, or pagan. Gentiles, who believe Jesus, will be saved “through faith”. The measure of Grace, that a believing Gentile extends his fellow man, will be an indication of whether or not he lives this faith… If a person looks to law (in the case of the believer – Law) for the rightness of life conduct in relation to others, then that will be the measuring stick by which God will grade his life. Embracing Law will require salvation (justification) “through Law”.

Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  jimhsan
Yoda55
Replied to:  I don't think we can do much more than to obey...
Jimhsan wrote: "I sense a few ambiguous terms here, ... If you do not obey, that is not what Yahweh wants or accepts, and it is not love."

Well, by all means let’s not be ambiguous (as communications requires lexicon which both conversant understand).
Definitions: Merriam-Webster Dictionary (www.)merriam-webster(.com)-dictionary-
Believe:
(verb intransitive) (1a) to have a firm religious faith; (1b) to accept something as true, genuine, or real; (2) to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something; (3) to hold an opinion;
(verb transitive) (1a) to consider to be true or honest; (1b) to accept the word or evidence; (2) to hold an opinion.

Faith: (noun) (1a) allegiance to duty or person; (1b1) fidelity to one’s promises; (1b2) sincerity of intentions; (2a1) belief and trust in and loyalty to God; (2a2) to believe in the traditional doctrines of a religion; (2b1) firm belief in something for which there is no proof; (2b2) complete trust; (3) something that is believed especially with strong conviction.

Based upon these definitions, let’s dissect your statement. Abraham was disposed to a single God concept (in contrast to others in Ur of the Chaldeans – Babylon). He felt that he had communication with this singular God. And, he followed the statement from this God to leave his family and travel west to Canaan. Abraham believed (defns: vi. 2 or vt. 1a/1b) God’s voracity in promising a land of his own. Abraham had faith (defns: n. 1b1/1b2/2a1/2b2/3) in God, which grew with time as God demonstrated promise fulfillments. Again, the “Law of YHWH” was only articulated as wishes on a one-on-one basis, and was not the articulated Ten Commandments and subsequent 603 detailed instructions to the Hebrews (OT). As trust increases, an acquaintance turns into a friendship and morphs into an affection which ultimately results in love – the level of trust leads the one who trusts to expose himself to greater degrees of vulnerability to (openness with) the trusted individual. As with any child, the progression/evolution of affections grows into love as the parent is seen as completely trustworthy. The child will then seek out the parent whenever difficult obstacles arise, looking to the parent for guidance.

The God (singular) which Christians recognize created the universe as life support for Earth, and the setting for cultivating human beings. God has a love (Greek “agape”) for His creation, otherwise He wouldn’t have bothered to go to all that trouble. He seeks a responsive loving relationship with those created creatures (as a parent would have for his children). The actions of the children don’t always follow the paths the parent wants. But, the parent is willing to sacrifice anything for the child, that the child may survive and thrive. God (YHWH) has created a universe. He’s developed a teaching program to educate His children (Tanakh, Bible themes), and to react to unruly children by acting in their best interests – even to the point of dying for them, that they may live… The theme of the Bible (from the OT to the NT) only evidences a love of a parent for children, which will educate the children about the parent’s motives.

jimhsan wrote: "Perhaps, you may be putting Paul's teaching above Jesus and Yahweh. ... Jesus teaching wholeheartedly supported the Mosaic Law and Prophets (whereas Paul rejects the same)."

Pauline teaching is directed at the Gentiles, who will only be saved through faith – because they aren’t Hebrew, who are saved “through (by) the Law”. Gentiles, because of the unmerited Grace extended by God to them, should respond to God with gratitude and love – naturally seeking to do His desires as a way of worshiping and thanking Him.

jimhsan wrote: "Personally, my authority, my teacher, my pope, is Yahweh. ... because I keep his Instructions, as both Moses and Jesus say. ('Instructions' means: Commands; Word; Law; Ordinances; Judgments; mitzvoth)."

Something to consider: EXODUS 19:5-6 stated a Hebrew obligation to be “priests” to the world. What single purpose does a priest serve? He serves to educate and guide those placed under his care. If the Hebrews were given an instruction, and they isolated themselves and didn’t complete the priestly obligation to the rest of the world, then did they obey God? I don’t think so... JAMES 2:8-11 stated that in order to be righteous (under the Law) one must keep the whole Law (24/7). If the person fails to do so, by breaking one small part, he’s guilty of breaking the whole Law... The Law requires Boolean AND treatment. The only way one can say that the whole Law has been satisfied is if ALL CONSTITUENT PARTS of the Law have been maintained… Because human beings are fallible, NO HUMAN BEING can keep the whole Law, all of the time. Being guilty of transgressing the Law, no one can be justified by it. Those who rely on justification by the Law alone are doomed. The only thing standing between the Hebrews and doom is the Covenant made with Abraham.
Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  jimhsan
Yoda55
Replied to:  I don't think we can do much more than to obey...
Jimhsan wrote: "Another caveat: My only truth is what the Supreme One actually says through his prophets, which is very often ... (it isn't clear to me if John of Patmos was the same as John as the apostle). As Jesus says:"

NO ONE who is unrighteous can stand before God, nor can speak on God’s behalf. The prophets of the OT were sinful men, declared righteous by God, so that they could communicate His word to the world. God declared them righteous – they can’t declare themselves righteous because only God is judge of Sin. If Jesus is a prophet, then He is declared righteous by the Father. Jesus chose the disciples. What God imparted to the disciples through Jesus could only be done if the disciples were considered righteous (for them to pass on to others). And, they are prophets – as they admonished those to whom they spoke, just as the OT prophets did (performing miracles and foretelling judgment for erroneous behavior toward God). In the strictest sense, they are not completely “prophets” until the things of which they spoke and warned have come to pass with 100% realization.

jimhsan wrote: "Luke 16:31 - If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. [He is not referring to Jews only; rising from the dead is not a teaching for Jews]"

Not true. The Sadducees were perpetuating the idea that there was no life after physical death. Pharisees (the leadership in ascendency at Jesus' time) were sympathetic to the idea of life after physical death... Again, if Jesus is a prophet and He spoke of life after physical death, demonstrating it Himself after crucifiction, then it must be coming from God (Truth).

jimhsan wrote: "Jesus clearly supported the Law and Prophets, as did Moses. ... John 14 does say that if someone loves Jesus, he will obey the Law."

As Jesus was sent to the Hebrews (MATTHEW 15:21-28), He was not directing His time on the Earth toward the Gentiles. He was there to correct the Hebrew leadership, speaking through the common people. His disciples (and apostles after them) would carry the message to the rest of the world, once His mission on the Earth was finished at the cross.

jimhsan wrote: "Paul of Tarsus (I could quote a dozen verses) scorns the Law, and says that he is above the Law. I can only assume that the 'Lord' of Jesus of the gospels, is not the 'Lord' of Paul of Tarsus ... I found 80 examples so far; and these are not minor. Paul does indeed seem to be the anti-Jesus. Perhaps that's why we find:"

I’d be interested to find this “list”, and search out its legitimacy… Remember, the letters of Paul (comprising a majority of the NT) are directed at Gentile Christian fledgling congregations who had issues with paganism creeping back into their thought processes, personalities rising within the congregations (which were charismatic and wrongly focused), and some are examples of proper emphasis and behaviors.

jimhsan wrote: "All through the OT, Yahweh is called Yahweh, ... did not retire after the garden of Eden, nor did he close up shop after tempting Jesus. In fact, he only stopped for a 'season':"

Check out the OT and NT usage of names as a way to describe a person, and the propensity to rename a person when another characteristic was dominant in that individual… Perhaps God has the same quality – name (characteristic) being modified to reflect a new nuance important understanding of God (e.g. Simon – Peter)… NT Greek language nuances (one word for each distinct nuance) are loused up by English constructs (one word with multiple definitions).
Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  Yoda55
jimhsan
Replied to:  One chunk at a time... jimhsan wrote: "I don't think...
You wrote:
"jimhsan wrote: "The OT says that blood sacrifice is not needed for forgiveness ('I desire compassion and not sacrifice'). This is said dozens of times."

"That quotation is difficult to find (particularly OT), but is similar to NT MATTHEW 12:7 (“I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.”). I’m still looking for your particular quoted phrasing dozens of times, but I will concede to PSALMS 51:16-17 in its essence. "
--------------------
OK, a few places with 'mercy not sacrifice' are:

Leviticus 25:8-13 [This is the Jubilee at 49-50 years, where each turns back to his original possession, and debts are forgiven. Note that the 40 years in the desert were less that the fifty years of Jubilee. He says that he will not remain angry forever, because mankind cannot sustain it. Of course, that means that the offender has learned humility and seeks forgiveness, and is not being arrogant and full of pride.]

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said: Has YHWH as great delight in
ascent offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the Voice-of-YHWH?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to pay attention, than
the fat of rams.
1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin-of-divination, and stubbornness
is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the
Word-of-YHWH, he has therefore rejected you as king.

Psalm 40:6(7) Sacrifice and gifts you did not desire; you have opened
my ears: ascent offering and sin offering you have not required.

Psalm 69:29(30) And I am humiliated and in pain: let your-Salvation,
Elohim, set me upon a secure height.
Psalm 69:30(31) I will praise the Name-of-Elohim with song, and I will
magnify him with thanksgiving.
Psalm 69:31(32) And this will please YHWH better than an ox or bullock
that has horns and hoofs.
Psalm 69:32(33) The humble will see this and they will be glad: and
your(p) heart will live, those who inquire of Elohim.
Psalm 69:33(34) For YHWH hears the poor, and does not despise his
prisoners.

----------------------------
The following is a powerful refutation of Paul's "faith apart from works". You can 'declare with your mouth and believe in your heart' but your prayers will be rejected, as long as you are praying with the blood of pride and rebellion against the Mosaic Law. The Law requires generosity to the poor and to the widow. Paul rejects this: "If they will not work, they will not eat"; and "do not include a widow who is not over sixty, who has had more than one husband, etc". The Law says, feed the hungry, whether they are female and under 60 years or not; whether they are, or are not working according to my liking because of mental disability or because they write poetry that hasn't been published for enough money; or for any reason whatever. No excuses for rejecting the poor and the widow. If they hunger, feed them, clothe them. That is the Law; that is loving Yahweh. Paul rejects this; therefore I reject Paul. [and notice Isaiah 1:28; on the day of wrath, the rebels who reject his Law will be taken ('raptured') to 'where the vultures gather', as Jesus says, while the obedient and humble will remain to inherit the Earth under the Messiah-Christ forever]:
----------------------------

Isaiah 1:9 If YHWH-of-hosts had not left us a very small
remnant, we would have been as Sodom, and we would have been
like Gomorrah.
Isaiah 1:10 Hear the Word-of-YHWH, you(p) rulers of Sodom; give ear to
the Law-of-our-Elohim, you people of Gomorrah.
Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your(p) sacrifices to me?
says YHWH: I am fed up of the ascent offerings of rams, and
the fat of fed beasts; and I do not delight in the blood of
bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
Isaiah 1:12 When you(p) come to appear before me, who has required this
from you(p), to trample my courts?
Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain gifts; Incense is an abomination to
me; The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I
cannot abide with; It is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isaiah 1:14 my soul hates your(p) new moons and your(p) appointed feasts:
they are a trouble to me; I am weary from putting up with them.
Isaiah 1:15 And when you(p) spread forth your(p) hands, I will hide my eyes
from you(p): Even when you(p) make many prayers, I will not hear:
your(p) hands are full of blood.
Isaiah 1:16 Wash you(p), make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your(p)
doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil;
Isaiah 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge
the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, says YHWH: Though
your(p) sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson, they will be as wool.
Isaiah 1:19 If you(p) are willing and obedient, you(p) will eat the good of the
land:
Isaiah 1:20 But if you(p) refuse and rebel, you(p) will be devoured by the
sword: for the Mouth-of-YHWH has spoken it.
Isaiah 1:21 How the faithful city has become a harlot! it was full of
judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Isaiah 1:22 Your silver is dross, your wine is diluted with water:
Isaiah 1:23 Your princes are rebellious and companions of thieves: every
one loves bribes and follows after rewards: they do not judge for
the fatherless, nor does the cause of the widow come to them.
Isaiah 1:24 Therefore an averment of
the-my-Lord-YHWH-of-hosts-Mighty-One-of-Israel: Woe, I will rid
myself of my adversaries, and avenge me of my enemies:
Isaiah 1:25 And I will turn my hand upon you, and completely purge away your
dross, and take away all your tin impurities:
Isaiah 1:26 And I will restore the ones judging you as at the beginning, and
your counsellors as at the start: afterward you will be
called: The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Isaiah 1:27 Zion will be redeemed with judgment, and the ones returned to her,
with righteousness.
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners
will happen all at once, and those who forsake YHWH will be
consumed.

Jeremiah 7:21 Thus says YHWH-of-hosts-Elohim-of-Israel; Put your(p)
ascent offerings with your(p) sacrifices, and you(p) eat the food.
Jeremiah 7:22 For I did not speak to your(p) fathers, nor commanded them
in-that-day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning
ascent offerings or sacrifices.
Jeremiah 7:23 But this I commanded them, saying: Obey my-Voice, and I
will be your(p) Elohim, and you(p) will be my people, and you(p) will go in
all the ways that I have commanded you(p), so that it may be well with
you(p).
Jeremiah 7:24 But they did not hearken, nor incline their ear, but walked in
the counsels and in the imagination of their evil mind, and went backward
and not forward.
Jeremiah 7:25 Since the day that your(p) fathers came forth out of the land of
Egypt to this day, I have sent you(p) all my servants the-prophets, daily
rising early and sending them,
Jeremiah 7:26 Yet they did not hearken to me nor inclined their ear, but
hardened their neck. They did worse than their fathers.
Jeremiah 7:28 But you will say to them: This is a nation that disobeys the
Voice-of-YHWH-his-Elohim and does not accept correction. Truth has
perished and is cut off from their mouth.
Jeremiah 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, an
averment of YHWH; They have put their abominations in the house
which is called by my-Name, polluting it.


Hosea 6:6 For I desire compassion and not sacrifice, and the knowledge
of Elohim more than ascent offerings.

Hosea 8:11 Because Ephraim has made many altars to sin, altars will be
there for him to sin.
Hosea 8:12 I have written to him many things in my-Law, but they were
unknown to him.
Hosea 8:13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of my offerings and
eat it, but YHWH does not accept them; now he will remember their
guilt and note their sins; they will return to Egypt.
Hosea 8:14 For Israel has forgotten his-Maker and builds temples, and
Judah has multiplied walled cities, but I will send a fire upon his
cities, and it will devour its palaces.

---------------------
Whoah! The Holy One does not want any sacrifice of any only-begotten son! (Micah 6:7):
---------------------

Micah 6:6 With what will I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the
Elohim-on-high? Will I come before him with ascent offerings, with
calves a year old?
Micah 6:7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten
thousand rivers of oil? Will I give my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does
YHWH require of you, but to do justly, and to love compassion, and
to walk humbly with your-Elohim?

----------------------------


Save
Cancel
Reply
replied to:  Yoda55
jimhsan
Replied to:  Jimhsan wrote: "However, Paul of Tarsus, who you may be quoting,...
You wrote:
"The Hebrews will be saved “through the Law”, according to their (degree of) adherence to it in thought, word, and deed. The Hebrew tenacious pursuit of these rules and forms All other people are Gentile – separated from God because of misdirected foci. Jesus came to remind the Hebrew leadership that behavior “form” is not the only thing required. He made it clear that the heart (the seat of our motivations) must also be active in reading and doing God’s will… The Gentiles, not being hereditarily born into the family of Abraham, are outside this special dispensation. If God was to provide salvation for them, then another approach would be required. God requires blood payment for Sin – the Hebrew sacrifices were the outward manifestations of this, even though that’s not what God really wants from them. What way could God provide salvation for the Gentiles? If He came to live among us (in bodily form), then physically dying, would be the means. Jesus’ sacrifice (of Himself), if the Gentile believes that this death and resurrection remits all his sins, pays for the disobedience of the Gentile. A Gentile who refuses to accept this is usually labeled “agnostic’, ‘atheist’, or pagan. Gentiles, who believe Jesus, will be saved “through faith”."

That is a reasonable summation of what Paul preaches. But, that is not what Jesus taught.

Paul teaches that there is a righteousness apart from performing the Law. But there is no acceptable 'form' of the Law apart from kindness, fairness, love for Yahweh, love for one's neighbor and for the stranger and disadvantaged; and rejection of arrogance, corruption and pride:

Isaiah 1:16 wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, 17 learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.

Isaiah 33:15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity,
 He who rejects unjust gain
 And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
 And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;

Isaiah 66:2 Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD. "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word.

Jeremiah 7:4 Do not trust in lying words, saying: Temple-of-YHWH,
Temple-of-YHWH, Temple-of-YHWH.
Jeremiah 7:5 For if you(p) throughly amend your(p) ways and your(p) doings, if
you(p) throughly act with good judgment between a man and his neighbor,
Jeremiah 7:6 If you(p) do not oppress the stranger, the fatherless and the
widow, and shed no innocent blood in this place, nor walk after
other-elohim to your(p) harm,
Jeremiah 7:7 Then will I cause you(p) to dwell in this place, in the land that
I gave to your(p) fathers, forever and ever.
Jeremiah 7:8 Behold, you(p) trust in lying words that cannot benefit.
Jeremiah 7:9 Will you(p) steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear
falsely, and burn incense to Baal, and walk after other-elohim that
you(p) do not know;
Jeremiah 7:10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called
by my-Name, and say: We are redeemed and we may do all these
abominations?
Jeremiah 7:11 Is this house which is called by my-Name, a den of robbers
in your(p) eyes? Behold, I have seen it, an averment of YHWH.

Jeremiah 21:12 O house of David, thus says YHWH: Execute judgment in
the morning, and deliver him who is plundered out of the hand of
the oppressor, or my-Fury will be like fire and burn so that
no one can quench it, because of the evil of your(p) doings
Jeremiah 22:3 Thus says YHWH: Execute judgment and righteousness,
and deliver the plundered out of the hand of the oppressor: and
do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless,
nor the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.

Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does
YHWH require of you, but to do justly, and to love compassion, and
to walk humbly with your-Elohim?
Micah 6:10 Are there yet the treasures of wickedness in the house of the
wicked, and the short measure that is abominable?
Micah 6:11 Will I count them pure with the wicked balances, and with the
bag of deceitful weights?
Micah 6:12 For its rich men are full of violence, and its inhabitants have
spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.

--------------------------------
--------------------------------

Where, in all the above, is any command to have 'faith'? There isn't any requirement to believe anything; only a requirement to be humble, and to protect and help the weak and poor and needy. That is the Law and Prophets; they will see the world to come with the Messiah forever, and live with him.

Contrary to popular opinion, the OT does not teach that all Jews will be saved. Only a remnant will survive to the world to come. Being born Jewish is a symbol of being chosen. Because of the exiles over the centuries, there are chosen ones who do not know they are chosen. If someone has turned from righteousness, his good deeds will be forgotten. If someone leads a life of evil and repents, then his judgement will be as a righteous one, and his past misdeeds will be forgotten (That's in several chapters of Ezekiel). To paraphrase, 'beauty is as beauty does'.

Remember the parable of the good Samaritan? The one left for dead in the ditch, does not need to hear, 'Jesus died for your sins and rose from the grave'; nor to hear statements of Paul's 'faith apart from works, lest anyone boast'. He needs a work of compassion; and pronto. Therefore, the Samaritan did what the Law says; the others did not keep the Law to help and defend the weak and injured.

And who are the Samaritans? Nowadays, they might be called atheists and pagans; they were hated as idolators and disbelievers. Jesus, quoting the OT (as always), says that the things that the sons of Jacob so greatly esteem, Yahweh despises.

And what's the Law and Prophets? It is what benefits us. That is a full and sufficient definition of it. What violates the Law, does not profit. Even disbelievers, if they want the highest good for everyone, and if they seek truth, and search out what is truly good with diligence, the Law will be found by them, and they will be saved on the last day for paradise because they dedicated themselves to the Law of Yahweh by seeking his Truth — though they did not know it. The prophecies say that, in fact. "I was found by those who did not seek me, (etc)." There is nothing outside the Mosaic Law that benefits more than the Mosaic Law. Even the civil laws that work best, those passed with no awareness of scripture, will be found to coincide with the Law and Prophets! There are plenty of people who are considered by others to be great Christians and Jews, who will be told on that day, 'Go away, I do not know you.' And there will be plenty of those who call themselves atheists and pagans who will be welcomed into the world to come, because of their compassion and generosity to the poor, to the stranger, to the widow; and for their protection of the helpless and injured. You can embrace the Law without knowing the Law, and you will achieve salvation; this is what the Law and Prophets (and, of course, Jesus) say.

Paul says otherwise.

Remember the parable of the two sons? The first son said, 'I will help you, father', and more words of faith; yet he did not show up to help. The other son declared, 'I will not go', but later he changed his mind and came and helped his father; Jesus asked which son did the will of the Father, and the crowd said rightly, 'the second son'.

Jesus says, you cannot serve Yahweh and serve Mammon. This is in the gospel of Luke. There are a few interesting parables near that quotation; see Luke 16 and 17.

Who's Mammon? (see Luke 16:13) A parable explains. It is far more than just the acquisition of riches. Dig deep, search and you will find. 'Six' is sometimes used as a symbol of the Evil One, as in Revelation 13:18. See Luke 16:19 (the three previous verses are also priceless gems, as is the beginning of the next chapter):

Luke 16:19 has one of six rich brothers, wealthy and complacent. Lazarus was at his gate, waiting for crumbs the rich man discarded; he was not generous to Lazarus, possibly because he thought that, 'if you do not work, you shall not eat', so he had a good excuse for ignoring the beggar.

Both die, and Lazarus is admitted to the innermost bosom of Abraham, to the world to come. But the rich man was in torments in hell, and saw Abraham with Lazarus. He asks for a drop of water to ease his torments, but Abraham refuses. Then he entreats Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house, to save the other five brothers of his to testify, so they might repent.

But Abraham says (and consider this carefully, as if you never heard of this parable before):
-------------
Luke 16:29 Abraham says to him: They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said: Nay, father Abraham, but if one went to them from
the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said to him: If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
----------------

Consider carefully here:
Abraham is surely speaking for the Supreme One;
Both Abraham and Jesus insist that we keep the Law and Prophets, as with Luke 16:17 "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for the least stroke of a pen in the Law to fail";
The rich man despises the Law and Prophets, and instead wants to convince the unrighteous by having someone rise from the dead.

Does anyone talk more about the importance of 'rising from the dead' than Paul of Tarsus? Does anyone speak more harshly against the Law and Prophets in the entire bible more than Paul of Tarsus?

You just can't get clearer than this parable.

Jesus (agreeing with Abraham's testimony) esteems the Law and Prophets; and he does not value 'rising from the dead', nor does he see belief in the doctrine that he rose from the dead, as important to salvation.

Paul of Tarsus esteems the doctrine that Jesus rose from the dead; and he sees belief in Jesus and Jesus rising from the dead as necessary for salvation; and Paul does not value the Law and Prophets.

We have another clear example of Paul as the anti-Jesus:

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the
one, and love the other, or else he will hold to the one, and
despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon.

So, we can follow the word of Jesus and reject the word of Paul; or we can follow the word of Paul, and we must then reject Jesus. We can follow Jesus and serve Yahweh's Law; or we can follow Paul — Mammon — and reject the Law, and keep 'Jesus' as a meaningless, empty figurehead to deceive the world; even the very elect, if that were possible, as he warns in Matthew 24:24. Alas, it is way possible.
Save
Cancel
Reply
 
x
OK