Definition of SIN is to be decided by wisdom of oneself alone instead of leaving it to be defined by either any of religious PUNDITS or by anyone else.

At the same time, this forum is neither viewed by any authority of SANTMAT nor one should expect any response from them.

Wisdom of a murderer or rapist sees no harm in doing a henious crime. Does that mean he is not doing any sin?

One can read everything from the body language in the above box!

In that case, no GURU could ever show the right path to such a murderer or a rapist. Or cite any GURU who has ever attempted to show right path to any such rapist or a murderer?

YEH PAAP HAI KYA AUR PUNYA HAI KYA REETON PAR DHARAM KEE MOHREN HAIN!
YUG YUG MEIN BADALTE DHARMON KO KAISE ADARSH BANAO GE!
SANSAAR SE BHAAGE PHIR SE HO BHAGWAAN KO TUM KYA PAO GE !!

"One can read everything from the body language in the above box! "

==> Sorry to disappoint. But you have misinterpreted my post. It was not directed to the author of this topic, but in reply to susingh's post who clearly said in his above post that one should stick to self wisdom only(**Definition of SIN is to be decided by wisdom of oneself alone**).
One who uses his wisdom only and follows ones mind or desires, he is a Manmukhi.






"In that case, no GURU could ever show the right path to such a murderer or a rapist."

==> If a person follows his own selfish desires and turn its back towards any guru, then what can you expect more from this person. But if the same person repents his previous wrongdoings and comes into the sanctuary of a true guru and agrees to abide by the gurumukh rules, then he is saved.

Have a look at these excerpts from granth sahib,

ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਿਰਪਨ ਲੋਭਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
कामि करोधि मोहि वसि कीआ किरपन लोभि पिआरु ॥
Kām karoḏẖ mohi vas kī▫ā kirpan lobẖ pi▫ār.
When you are under the power of sexual desire, anger and worldly attachment, or a greedy miser in love with your wealth;
ਚਾਰੇ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਉਨਿ ਅਘ ਕੀਏ ਹੋਆ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੁ ॥
चारे किलविख उनि अघ कीए होआ असुर संघारु ॥
Cẖāre kilvikẖ un agẖ kī▫e ho▫ā asur sangẖār.
if you have committed the four great sins and other mistakes; even if you are a murderous fiend
ਪੋਥੀ ਗੀਤ ਕਵਿਤ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਕਰਨਿ ਧਰਿਆ ॥
पोथी गीत कवित किछु कदे न करनि धरिआ ॥
Pothī gīṯ kaviṯ kicẖẖ kaḏe na karan ḏẖari▫ā.
who has never taken the time to listen to sacred books, hymns and poetry -
ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਨਿਮਖ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਤਰਿਆ ॥੪॥
चिति आवै ओसु पारब्रहमु ता निमख सिमरत तरिआ ॥४॥
Cẖiṯ āvai os pārbarahm ṯā nimakẖ simraṯ ṯari▫ā. ||4||
if you then come to remember the Supreme Lord God, and contemplate Him, even for a moment, you shall be saved. ||4||

(Guru Granth Sahib Page 70)





"Or cite any GURU who has ever attempted to show right path to any such rapist or a murderer?"

==> The great sage valmiki formerly known as Ratnakara was believed to be a thief / hunter / dacoit / killer of many people / robber / brahmin / a brahmin by birth and brought up by a low caste person.One day Nārada Muni (another sage) was passing by that way when he ran into Ratnakara, who insisted him to give everything he owns, from his clothing to the shoes he was wearing. Nārada Muni asked Ratnakara if his family was part of this sin that he was committing and he told him to go ask his family that same question. Ratnākara tied Nārada to a tree to make him stay in that same spot until he was back. When Ratnākara asked his parents if they were with him on the sin that he was doing, they replied that it was his job to take care of them, and that only he was responsible for his own sins. His wife also said the same thing. Ratnākara then returned to Nārada Muni and fell to his feet. He told him that he alone was responsible for the sins and asked him to help him get rid of the sins he had committed.Nārada told him to repeat Lord Śrī Rāma's name and that would assist him. However, having committed such great sins all his life thus far, Ratnākara could not even pronounce the holy name "Rāma". All he could think of and speak of was "marā" (death). So Nārada insisted that he keep repeating the word "marā" until he could say "rāma". Then, after Nārada left, Ratnākara went into a deep penance while reciting the Lord's name. Over time as he kept meditating, remaining motionless, an anthill grew around him. After a long penance, a divine light came upon him and said that he was free from all sins, and that he was to be called "Vālmīki" from then. (Wikipedia)

Lot of I(s) and You(s) and even individuals' names have been used in the above post apart from passing judgments by taking oneself to be nothing but final in one’s own wisdom. Lot of thanks for such comments and judgments!

It is quite O.K. but still some points are being addressed with lot of constrains and reservations within.

1. Regarding “One who uses his wisdom only and follows one’s mind or desires, he is a Manmukhi.” If use of one’s wisdom based upon one’s knowledge and experiences, is to be banned for its use with a blind eye or blind faith, the purpose of taking birth in human form gets defeated. Hence use of the term “MANMUKHI” may be appropriated by its user again.

2. Regarding, showing right path to a murderers or a rapists by some GURU, is relevant for the present GURUS to spend their full energy and wisdom on all such mislead souls instead of spending their time and energy on honestly living common man so as to enjoy the pride by increasing number in their SATSANG. Only then, one could compare their wisdom and claims of being GIHF (God in Human Form) if any of present GURUS, of any Religion/philosophy, also could set examples as cited in the above box. Why not to set new examples instead of continuing citing and relying on others' BANIS and examples and howling? Are the present GURUS lacking any such powers or are they shy of showing to their disciples, if not misleading them in any way?

3. In this era of KALYUG, there is more need of GURUS to guide people for sowing the seeds of best KARMAS for spreading love all around instead of anything else. Meditation is a simple exercise, which can be done by ordinary people by concentrating and attaining the thoughtless levels within.

Hope, reader may like to turndown any such claim under any pretext, but the need of the hour is to work on increasing crime rate requiring working on such criminal minds alone also for some time at least, without bothering for numbers in one's SATSANGS.

Lotus grows by maintaining its beauty and continues fetching its attraction too.

"Lot of I(s) and You(s) and even individuals' names have been used in the above post apart from passing judgments by taking oneself to be nothing but final in one’s own wisdom. Lot of thanks for such comments and judgments!"

==> So what word i use to refer myself and for to refer you and how can i attribute a story and facts to a person without telling his/her name? It's quite difficult rule you have set sir!
No sir, i don't agree with your post. I have no made judgments by using my wisdom alone and at many times presented quotes from scriptures to affirm it.






"1. Regarding “One who uses his wisdom only and follows one’s mind or desires, he is a Manmukhi.” If use of one’s wisdom based upon one’s knowledge and experiences, is to be banned for its use with a blind eye or blind faith, the purpose of taking birth in human form gets defeated. Hence use of the term “MANMUKHI” may be appropriated by its user again. "

==> I never said that one must not use his wisdom. Of course, without wisdom one can't take critical decisions in his life and in fact life wouldn't exist without it.
Just re-read your statement and focus your attention on the starred words and see how it changes the whole meaning of statement which you may not want to convey but instead opposite to what you are saying now.
((((Definition of SIN is to be decided by wisdom of ***oneself alone*** instead of leaving it to be defined by either any of religious PUNDITS or by anyone else.)))))






"2. Regarding, showing right path to a murderers or a rapists by some GURU, is relevant for the present GURUS to spend their full energy and wisdom on all such mislead souls instead of spending their time and energy on honestly living common man so as to enjoy the pride by increasing number in their SATSANG. Only then, one could compare their wisdom and claims of being GIHF (God in Human Form) if any of present GURUS, of any Religion/philosophy, also could set examples as cited in the above box. "

==> Howsever a teacher teaches a subject with full energy and wisdom, but student has to abide by the teacher teachings and study in order to pass. If a student don't comply with the rules of teacher and fails in that subject, and all others pass, then who is to blame for? In that case, is it right to say that teacher discriminated with that single student?








"Why not to set new examples instead of continuing citing and relying on ***others***' BANIS and examples and howling? Are the present GURUS lacking any such powers or are they shy of showing to their disciples, if not misleading them in any way?"

==> Please don't say this. SGGS also contains many banis of 15 Bhagats like Guru Ravi Dass, Kabir, Namdev, Ramanand etc. Gurbani in general refers to the writings/teachings written by guru. Yes, in this regard many books on RSSB tradition authored by babaji are available at all RS outlets.








"3. In this era of KALYUG, there is more need of GURUS to guide people for sowing the seeds of best KARMAS for spreading love all around instead of anything else. Meditation is a simple exercise, which can be done by ordinary people by concentrating and attaining the thoughtless levels within. "

==> There are different types of meditation. The one Surat Shabad Yoga is taught by a guru and can be performed only after initiating from him.








"Hope, reader may like to turndown any such claim under any pretext"

==> I am not using any pretext, but valid facts. If you think it is not, then go ahead and turn down mine. I will not be offended, but admire and shall indeed learn something from it!

In view of comments of mr. Starspeed in a subsequent box, "(Ah. Now i see your roots. Your hostile behavior confirmed it. Thanks!!)

So there is no need to offer comments here also, more so when Mr. Starspeed has also prescribed some qualification also for participating, in this forum in general, but to his posts in particular. So first let someone submit such degree (of initiation) before going ahead to deal with his posts. Rather roots and behavior also need to be got checked from Mr. Starspeed before responding to such posts.