After doing a talk about the crash based on LTC Rolt's book a member of the audience said he had lived in the Gretna area for several years. He said that since the accident there had been a strong local rumour which said that the two signalmen were not responsible for the crash but took the blame because they were young and had no families. It was suggested that the driver of the special had overrun several red lights and thus was responsible for the accident but as he had a family who would not have received compensation Meakins and Tinsley took the blame. As evidence the rumour claims support from the fact that they were both released fairly quickly and reemployed by the Company.
Has anyone else heard of this rumour? Has anyone seen any evidence that it is false or how it orginated.

Hi,

I am doing research into the Quintinshill Rail Crash and am intersted in your question which appears not to have been answered.

Firstly I think that there is no evidence to suggest the rumour is correct. I have studied the inquiry reports very carefully and it is clear that the troop train was running under clear signals.

However, there are many other discrepencies which were not properly addressed by the inquiry and it would possibly seem that the two signalmen where not entirely responsible.

I would be very intersted to learn of any rumours or suspicions of some kind "deal" to avoid compensation,

And any other inforamtion you may have on the crash

Thanks very much for the response. I am sorry but I have heard nothing further. I have done the talk a few times since and mentioned this story but no one has come up with any further information.
The information came from a member of the Cardiff Model Engineering Society but unfortunately I don't know his name. I am doing another talk for them in the autumn and will ask then so I may be able to get a bit more information.
I was interested to see that you are convinced that the train was running under clear signals - this does seem to confirm the official view.
Of course as we all know stories which everyone knows are true aren't eg that Victor Sylvester the bandleader served on four firing parties.
If I hear anything further I will post it.
Gavin Davies

Hi Gavin,

Thanks for replying.

As I said I and a railway historian are looking at the accident.

I won't go further at this stage, but as you lecture on it have you had any questions or concerns about the events in the box that led up to the crash or are you completely happy with the Inquiries findings?

Look forward to hearing from you

Jack

Hi Jack
I'm sure you know a lot more about the crash than me. I'm not an historian - student of military history probably covers it but I am interested in railways. I wrote the talk for the South Wales Branch of the Western Front Association on the basis that members would have heard of the crash but not the 'railway' details which did interest me. I got my information from Rolt's book plus OS Nock and a passing reference in Lyn Macdonalds 1915 - plus a picture of the token machine from the web.
I seem to recall one of the accounts says that traincrew from the goods trains were in the box and everyone was talking about the news of the war in the papers which had just arrived - this may explain why the signalmen were distracted but not why there may have been a cover up.
If you do get any more information please let me know as I would like to include it in the talk (with a proper acknowledgement of course).
I would also be interested in any additional details you might have about the Abermule single line crash as Harold Owen Owen was one of those killed and his letters have been published in A Welshman in Mesopotamia. I have put these two halves together for another talk and extra details are alwasys of interest.
Incidenally I do the talks for Help for Heroes so you would be supporting a very good cause.
Gavin

Hi Gavin,

Its a bit difficult to give you much at the moment. There may have been something of a cover up as your rumour suggests but we need much more evidence.

The issue is really down to one of the signalman in the box. He appears to have had at least four if not more lapses in memory over a period of about 16 mins all of which contributed to the disaster.

The official line on this is that - as you say - he was distracted. My colleague and I, as some other railway experts I have spoken to, find it quite hard to explain such a sequence of lapses in an experienced signalman until we came upon some rather "shaky" evidence that he may have had some problems which were not dislosed at the time.

One interesting fact that we have researched fully though that I can add for your talk, is evidence given to the Inquiry by Hugh Urqhart an prominent engineer from the Glasgow and South Western Railway. He accepted that there had been negligence by the signalman but felt that they should not be made scapegoats for management failures higher up as indeed there had been.Which I would be happy to share with you.

His recomendations were dismissed and not followed up by the Inspector.

We are still in the very early stages of this of this but we do have a line of enquiry to follow and at some point I would be happy to discuss this with you,but preferably not on a public forum like this so perhaps you might be able to contact me by email?

I am going to look at railway records at Kew Archives, I will have a look at Abermule for you.

Perhaps as a military historian you could help us?

We would like to know a little more about the Inspecting Officer on the Quintinshill enquiry. He was Lt Col Edward Druitt ex RE officer born around 1865. Do you know how we might trace records.

Many thanks for your interest.

Jack

Hi
Thanks for the response. My email address is davies357@btinternet.com and if you email me I would be happy to continue discussions direct.
I am not into tracing records at Kew but know a man who soes - all right they are WW1 or WW2 soldiers records but he may know something about others. He did put me onto someone who does it on behalf of people who can't get there which helped me trace information about a friend's father's records.
I will ask him if he has any knowledge of tracing railway enquiries and come back to you.
Gavin

Hi jack,
i have read with great interest your comments regards quintinshill as i believe some of my relatives where fatalitys in this sad day and would like to ask if you have any information regards the civilians that where
involved that day as i do not understand the statement that there where stowaways on the train from scotland.
hoping you can help in this info or point me in the right direction to obtaining such info

yours sincerely

joe

Hi Joe,

Can you give me more information on who your relatives were please?

I have a lot of new information on the crash and the casualties.I can help with most of the civilian fatalities.

The stowaway story is a myth and is not supported by hard evidence. I can provide more on that if you suspect your relatives might have been involved.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Best wishes,

Jack

Hi jack,
thank you for the quick response to me questions.
i was referring to the four bodies seemingly unclaimed who
where sent to maryhill cemetary and buried in caledonian graves unmarked untill last year when the mayor of falkirk had a stone erected to the lost children.
in have tried to communicate with him but as yet have recieved no reply i feel if there is anything outstanding regards this terrible accident one should try to resolve the situation.
i have been busy doing my family tree as it involves relatives in ireland i have travelled over but to no avail as there are four relatives i can not get death certificates for which leaves me in limbo and in search of answers for.
the reason for my belief that they are part of my family is in the past my parents made comments over the years that half of our family where killed in a train disaster but when we asked more about this story the subject was changed to something else but the people who could possibly provide the answers are no longer with us.

yours sincerely

Joe

Hi Joe,

This is very very interesting.

These are the facts concerning the unidentified bodies.

The remains were found on the express train from London to Glasgow, not on the troop train. Extensive research has shown that it would have been impossible to stowaway on the troop train.

There were two coffins taken to Leith one marked "little girl unrecognisable" and the other marked "three trunks possibly children."

No one checked these remains or came forward to claim them and they were sent to Glasgow and buried there. Somehow a myth grew up that they were children from Maryhill. The Mayor of Falkirk has been sadly misled I am afraid.

I too have tried to contact him but to no avail.

I beleieve these remains to be a family travelling to Scotland. Both a lady's and a child's hand were found in a sleeping compartment of the express along with some personal possessions.

Could this be your missing family?

I and a fellow author are writing a new book on the accident this would help to solve a real mystery. Would the family have any reason to be travelling to Glasgow?

Thanks for this, very exciting!

Jack

Hi Jack,
i did attend when they erected the head stone at the grave i explained my story as they had asked for anybody to comme forward with any info they might have on the people buried in caledonian graves there was a photographer who jotted down my story and took photo's of me at the gaveside but as far as i know theses where never published my thoughts are of finding out if this is part of my family buried there this is not a glory hunt or head hunt
i would like to find out the mystery to this story. my family originally came from ireland and where trying to make there way to canada when they where involved in this accident seemingly they boarded the train in glasgow the troops where picked up at castlecary falkirk area then to liverpool hopefully there can be a way to get answers to this story your thoughts of it being a family i can agree with.

yours

Joe

Hi Joe,

May be a dead end I'm afraid.

The troop train was a special working it left at about 3.45 am from Labert. It did not stop to pick up passengers anywhere it was not a public working - exclusively military and was packed.

It was guarded at Larbert nobody else could have got on it and nobody in Maryhil, Larbert or Falkirk would know where it was going. It was military secret.

Any way thanks for the interest. If you can find a reason why they may have been going to Glasgow let me know.

Thanks very much for getting in touch.

Jack

PS

Joe.

I have been professionally researching Quintinshill for over two years now.

The eye witness accounts state that remains of what I am sure was a family were found in the express train - not the troop train. They were not identified.

These are the known facts.

If you have any facts that can be verified by witness or other written accounts that can prove that a family or children somehow managed to board a secure troop train, I would very much like to see them please, and I will include them in the new book and give you credit for that.

Best wishes,

Jack

Hi Jack,
I understand what you are saying about a accident with so many ifs and buts and officials apart from the the signal men that where questioned as to there neglect leading up to this terrible tragedy plus nobody wanting to claim where the four unadentified people where actually placed in this crash and not a myth but a fact.
Did anyone ever take the time to enquire how or where the Troop Train came from before it arrived at Larbert.
My interest is not for bonus points but facts and proof of who is buried in Maryhill Cemetary.

YOURS

JOE

Hi Joe,

Thanks for coming back to me, I understand you contacted the Gretna Community Council on this matter.

I asked them to pass on my email to you, it is jack_richards@hotmail.com so please use that it will be easier to contact me via that.

As I believe I said I am a professional researcher working with a team on the Quintinshill accident.

I have some new information for you. Along with the two coffins containing the remains was another containing the body of a woman. This is new research and I have never seen it published before.

I am keen to find the real facts. I do not for one minute believe that four children from Maryhill got on the troop train, but I am as certain as I can be that a family weren't on it either.

I will send you the details of the discovery of the remains as per the local press reports at the time.

In answer to your inquiry the stock forming the three troop trains came from the GC Railway and were moved north and stored in sidings close to Larbert. They were moved under special instructions from the Railway Executive.

Strict security and secrecy was maintained and their destinations were not public knowledge. As the they all carried ammunition and supplies a guard was mounted round the clock. All doors locked as was the case even with normal trains in storage sidings.

To get on board the family would have be standing on the station with the troops. They would have been seen and challenged. Also there was not a spare place on the train.

According my research no newspaper at the time ever made any mention of stowaways. The story seemed to heve emerged much much later, it would appear possibly in the 1980's. It is not even mentioned in all the main books - hence my assertion that it is a myth.

I would like to inlcude your story in the new book but I have to go with the evidence I have. It was a bank holiday is it conceivable that your family could be returning home?

The train stopped en route so it was not only London passengers on board.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Best wishes, Jack