Gun politics in the United States
Safety and gun ownership
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lehmann520
The second amendment guarantees the right to bear arms. Arguments against this seems to be centered on the issue of safety.

Who would argue against safety? Gun owners say guns are safe, people are dangerous. Opponents say people with guns are dangerous, get rid of the guns.

American laws tend to side with safety. In the end, when the second amendment meets the final challenge, it will be about Americans being safe, maybe about the world being more safe, that is still playing out.

It is a mistake to underestimate the impact of the second amendment on American freedom. Allowing citizen's legal ownership of such potentially dangerous items (and they are, that's the point of having a gun in the first place) is the ESSENCE of freedom. It gives our citizens not only the RIGHT to stand against tyranny but the ABILITY.

Attempting to remove that ability will cost our great nation dearly. I don't doubt that this attempt will happen. It must happen if the powers that be want to succeed in the socialization of the global population.

I know this is a can of worms.

any takers?

Dawn
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replied to:  lehmann520
bokonon
Replied to:  The second amendment guarantees the right to bear arms. Arguments against...
Granted that Americans salivate for safety, i feel that there is more to the issue than safety.

The news media is in a feeding frenzy for gun control, but a trip to the Bureau of Justice Statistics shows that violent crime has dropped every year for 10-15 years in a row. One can't get that from the evening news. Oh, well, blood does sell.

I really believe that its more about control by our rulers, and that safety is just one of their approaches. Remember that they have very expensive people called "spin doctors" to tout for them. A "spin doctor" like the p.r. man before him is a paid proffesional liar.

the people who carry guns: cops,deputies, marshalls,etc. for the most part carry them off duty and are against the citizen carrying.

i agree that this is one more freedom that will soon be taken away, at least on paper. However anyone that wants a gun bad enough will have and keep one.

what do you think?

gene

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replied to:  bokonon
lehmann520
Replied to:  Granted that Americans salivate for safety, i feel that there is...
"I really believe that its more about control by our rulers, and that safety is just one of their approaches. Remember that they have very expensive people called "spin doctors" to tout for them. A "spin doctor" like the p.r. man before him is a paid proffesional liar."

I absolutely agree that 'safety' is NOT what this is about.It's NEVER about actual safety no matter what the issue. They DO want control...to get it they pour on the sweet syrup of 'it's good for you and everyone else, it's safer this way, _______ is bad for you, _____ is bad for everyone. Don't you see, this is a CHANGE FOR THE BETTER'

(yes we can...yes we can):::chanting in the back ground:::

and people want to be good and nice and safe so they agree and they allow another freedom to be wrenched away.

The reason I see the 2nd amendment as pivotal is because gun owners already think they ARE safer because they own guns. I know quite a few armed Americans. I AM an armed American. The powers that be DON'T understand that:
"you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers" is NOT spin. People really feel that way and they have the ABILITY to make that statement reality.

When they finally come for the 2nd, when they start sending the police, the enforcers, to count and/or take those guns, there's going to be trouble. Big trouble.

Gun owners are going to fight, maybe not all of them but many of them.

IMHO

I hope for the best but, well...part of preparing for the worst is the ability to see it coming.

Dawn
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replied to:  lehmann520
bokonon
Replied to:  "I really believe that its more about control by our rulers,...
The main thing (to me) is to find a workable solution.

I don't believe it will come to confiscation. Not that they don't want to, but because for the most part our leaders are so inept at running the country that there will always be greater and more pressing problems. I hope that this isn't just whistling in the dark. I see cell phones and the internet as two very positive brakes on police ahh police mismanagement.
Rodney King for example.
I would hope that the more farsighted and intelligent people on the net have formed the necessary groups that can respond to any disaster. The time to make alliances is before something happens, otherwise its too late. A study group to update Sun Tzu's "Art of War" would be an example.

Aside:
The PTB don't really understand much of anything. After a certain amount of power people tend to lose it (go crazy). It doesn't take much.

Bottom line is to wind up with a gun. I prefer clever to confrontation, I mean what do you do for backup if your first move fails?

Yes, always prepare for the worst, and asap.

gene
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replied to:  bokonon
lehmann520
Replied to:  The main thing (to me) is to find a workable solution....
Wow, a well reasoned, polite debate...whodathunkit :)

I would LOVE to be able to relax knowing that the PTB remain as inept as they always have been. In the past, I have always relied on the American system of balance and law and never really worried that either group of idiots would be able to take control for more than a term or two.

Unfortunately, I see great changes all around me. My children are being taught that the system I have faith in is bad and must be changed. I hear that message in the main stream media, I see it in books, on the internet, in blogs, on forums, hear it from mouths of casual acquaintances and long time friends. I see people who speak out for freedom and the Constitution being called fascist and marginalized in favor of progressive change.

Frankly, I'm alarmed. I hope they never confiscate or attempt to enter the private homes of legal gun owners to "verify" or "count" guns. Before 9-12, I would say it could never happen in America.
Unless something radical happens.
Is it?
I'm not sure, that's why I'm out here asking questions, to find out what real people think is going on.

gun control is(in my mind) the pivot point when I will know that the America I value is changing in a very bad way.

as for what happens if I shoot and miss and he gets me...I use all my wits and intelligence to try to survive. I practice both shooting and thinking on a regular basis.

thanks
Dawn
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replied to:  lehmann520
bokonon
Replied to:  Wow, a well reasoned, polite debate...whodathunkit :) I would LOVE...
Well thanks, but being polite is THE best policy. Your friends appreciate it and your enemies think you're a wuss and are liable to get overconfident. What could be better?

IMO sporting weapons, especially hunting weapons will be the last to go. Do you agree?

I have a Winchester model 12 and solid slugs, buckshot and bird shot, all legal, and that covers me in almost any minor conflict. Forget major, you're dead.

I also have a hacksaw that I know how to use.

So, I am one step removed from the final confrontation maybe. One step at a time in full combat mode is about all you can make. Otherwise you follow you "great" plan one step too far.

Sun Tzu say stay cool.

The whole point is DO NOT CONFRONT THE PTB DIRECTLY.

They really don't touch your daily life directly. If those in your charge have been fed, clothed, gotten through the day unharmed, and have a secure place to sleep life is good.
And if you have a plan, as I sense you do it seldom gets any better. Times have always been hard, just in different ways.

I no longer identify with this country as much as I used to. It has changed beyond my ability to grasp. But the hangover from the ideals of the constition are still somewhat holding down the absolute drive for a dictatorship of some kind so people like you and I can still explore controversial ideas withouy too much fear of the kind of response of the really bad governments of the past.

Awaiting your reply,
gene
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replied to:  bokonon
lehmann520
Replied to:  Well thanks, but being polite is THE best policy. Your friends...
I am about to dig up my copy of Sun Tzu because your references interest me.

I don't think we have to worry about confiscation, PTB will count and categorize first. I saw a reference somewhere out there to a possible bill requiring psychological testing of legal gun owners. I am alarmed by this.
I don't know if you've had any experience with the religion of psychology but let me tell you from first hand experience, if they say you're crazy, you are and the only recourse is to do what they tell you, take the pills and hope for escape. (I am not insane,however an ex-husband claimed I was when I freaked out over his crack addiction. I spent a week in a psyche ward. It was eye opening)

who is crazier than those who own guns in the minds of PTB?

if you see this 'count and categorize' happening, IMHO it is the beginning of a very scary time.


also IMHO, the PTB is currently trying very hard to change things so that they DO affect our small everyday lives. It's all about control. The only way to control Americans is too take away their ability to buy their way out of bad situations or work their way out of poverty. Look around carefully and ask your self:
how far am I from poor? How far is my neighbor from poor? As a poor person, what are my options if I lose it all? who will be in control of those options?

Do I have a plan? A vague one but the potential situation is not clear enough to form a real, implementable plan yet. I'm watching, listening, and thinking. I have not given up hope and I don't believe that 'they' will win. I believe in freedom.

I am not a 'direct confrontation' person.I would never want to fire my weapon at another American unless that American was firing at or attacking me. I will not live as anyone's slave. I will fight for freedom but I will commit as a soldier BEFORE I ever do that. You're right, direct confrontation at this stage is foolish and un-winnable. I am fighting with my mind and my words for now.
I am considering starting my own blog about this and other issues, a place where free thinkers can come up with creative ways to resist all this conformity pressure. By the way, I'm a Libertarian and pro-Constitution, Rule of Law not of heart, God loving, Non-religion type gal. I like to be up front with potential friends.
Would you be interested in such a blog?

Dawn

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replied to:  lehmann520
bokonon
Replied to:  I am about to dig up my copy of Sun Tzu...
Yes, I would be interested in such a blog, or at least in the subject matter. However I am out of the mainstream, so that doesn't really say too much.

I am back on the internet after several years and have not yet decided if I'm going to stay, let alone what kind of a platform I would choose to advance my cause. Hell, at this stage I don't even know what my cause would be.

As a joke I told my friends that I was going to do a Seti-like experiment called A Search For Intelligent Live On The Internet. I find it was no joke. Yours is one of the few concepts I have replied to, not so much for the exact subject matter (which is very important) but because of the presentation. So much posting, so little thought. Almost every place I've looked, the debate turns into a rant. As much as venting feels good, it does not serve to advance an honest mind.

As far as a plan goes Imo the first consideration would be,"why (exactly) do I want a gun?"
Home invasion, late night work, transporting large sums of money, etc. this is where Sun Tzu comes in. The more situations you plan for the better chance of you winning. It has to do with having more answers to hand when when the totally unexpected (and therefore unplanned) happens.

Which leads us back to The Art Of War. Its a joy to watch a great mind expand on an important subject. I spent a summer camped out in the mountains above Prescott, Az. (loafing and inviting my soul) first studying then copying the 400 sentences into a notebook bought for that specific occasion. As much to rearrange some of the ideas as to further commit them to memory. I haven't done that since. Definitly one of my top five reads. It was a fad for awhile unfortunately. Buzzed about for a bit then forgotten.

I worked an NP ward very briefly, took a few cources in psych, sought counseling a few times, hung out with pychs and social workers. I understand. The witch doctors have way too much power, and the least knowledge of the psyche of any one catagory I know of.

Well, nothing new, just a reply.

gene
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replied to:  bokonon
lehmann520
Replied to:  Yes, I would be interested in such a blog, or at...
Don't give up on the internet. I understand the overwhelming, brain numbing, my eyes are melting, feeling, but there really are a few people out here who are intelligent and thoughtful.

one of my friends from this forum is Blogengeezer. He hangs out in Global Warming calmly spreading truth and cool thinking amid the chaos.
his blog is Daflikkers.com
I find it to be a bit of a rant personally...I want to avoid that in my blog which is why I'm trying to plan it carefully and ask people like you what they think

your ability to be respectful and intelligent is greatly needed out here on this new frontier. I am involved in several rabid forums. I've even taken on the abortion issue. My only goal is to bring sanity to the screaming. If one person hears and says...that makes sense...I win.

We have to come together...the thinkers, the rationalists, the truth seekers, the ones who are smart enough to see through the bullsh** pouring out of the media and politics, if only as a matter of pure survival if it all comes crashing down.

I WON'T live as a slave. I don't want to be alone in that potential future. I want people around me who love freedom and clear thought. I'm out here spreading the good stuff and meeting the good people.
see, I met you.

I am way outside the mainstream in any direction as well. I think that is a good thing. It's time to be outside the box....all boxes.
I started this thread because I'm trying to get in touch with sanity by poking at the insanity. I am also active on the Global Warming, Barack Obama, Overpopulation and Christianity threads on this forum.

Dawn








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replied to:  lehmann520
bokonon
Replied to:  Don't give up on the internet. I understand the overwhelming, brain...
I've probally hit over 300 forums in the last few days. Kinda dizzy. Something's missing. Do you post on other forums? If so, I'd like to ask you some Q's.
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replied to:  bokonon
lehmann520
Replied to:  I've probally hit over 300 forums in the last few days....
I'm on about ten other forums that I regularly post on but I have also been through hundreds. Some are just absolutely insane. I know the feeling
what's your question?

Dawn
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replied to:  bokonon
Alpha
Replied to:  Well thanks, but being polite is THE best policy. Your friends...
Your right being polite is the best policy
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