Islam has a huge number of beliefs that it shares with Christianity. It has many prophets in common - such as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Job, Aaron, Moses, Solomon, Jacob, Jonah, John, David.. etc. There are some 25 prophets mentioned in the Bible that also appears in the Quran. Both the religions' founding figure were from a Jewish family, and both Jesus (pbuh) -peace be upon him) and Muhammad (peace be upon him) were intensely prosecuted for their beliefs. Jesus' (pbuh) mother - mother Marie - is very respected in both the religion, in fact she is called - the best of womenkind - in the Quran. Christianity and Islam, both believe in an after life where people will be sent to heaven or hell - depending upon their actions in this world. The Creation story, the account of the flood, Solomon-Sheeba story, Jonah-whale story, Jacob-sold, David-Golliath, Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Moses-10 plague of Egypt, ...and many other familiar accounts from the Bible are also mentioned in the Quran, although with a few differences. If one considers the Old Testament, one finds a great deal of similarity with the Quran. As in the Old Testament (Exodus), muslims too share very similar believe as in the 2nd commandment given to Moses (pbuh) - Worship no other god but Me, and in the 3rd commandment - 'Do not make for yourself any graven images of anything in heaven or on Earth, or in the waters under the Earth'. So muslims frown upon any artform that depicts any animal or human forms. Jesus (pbuh) is mentioned and accorded very high respect in the Quran, so belief in Jesus (pbuh) is mandatory upon every muslim, but in The Quran, he is only a prophet of the Lord and does not have any share in his Godhood. Unlike Christianity, Islam does not subscribe to the idea of Trinity. In Islam the Lord is One and Transcendent. Both the religion believes in the comming back of Jesus (pbuh) at Judgement Day, but in Christianity - he died and was the resurrected after three days, where as in Islam - he was ever killed and was saved by the mercy of the Lord and thus directly ascended/saved to heaven. Just as the Christian believe that the book of Torah was inspired by the Lord but later parts of the book was lost and corrupted, so to do the muslims believe in the four divinely inspired book - The Zabbur (?) of the Sabians', The Toraith (Torah) of the Israilites, The Injil (Bible) and The Quran.

Intrestingly, the Christian and the muslim marriage ceremony are extremely similar - in the Muslim
wedding too - the core or the real part of the wedding consist of the priest asking both the bride
and the groom separately, if they ascent to be married to the other person, upon both agreeing, the priest announces them to be married in the name of the the Lord (of course there is no kiss at the end of the wedding heheh).

The GOD and His will, Testament, Wisdom, Guidance, Teaching and instructions that have come through the Scriptures.

The great power of Satan, that is the negation of man's "free-will", and a "geographic" definition of Heaven and Hell, are common between Islam and Christianity. Thus both believe(d) that all would be good if the Devil was "destroyed" somehow! This brings about the non-responsibility of man for his mistakes, because the Devil Made Me Do IT is an universal excuse!
Both Islam and Christianity have highly evil creatures capable of leading man astray and Jins and Witches are basic to everyday life. The copulation between Angels and Humans seems not to be Islamic but Jewish and Christian instead, but I might be missinformed on that!Greek Gods often had offspring with human women, but not the other way around!

Islam being later than Christianity did not understand the trinity as being an attempt to make peace with polytheist traditions of Greek culture, and instead understood the concept as a business partnership. There is a Musslim prayer that says Allah does not need partners! From the inventors of Trade and Capitalism, this is a very remarkable thought that fully separates the Divine from Humans!

The notion of Jesus being divine and "paying" for man's sins is obviuosly related to the Greek leyend of Prometheous. Since neither the Old or New Testaments was properly Copy-righted, they served as sources for the Koran in a Historical Development sence, so by Abraham being taken over as their exclusive Prophet, Musslims can use historical sources as their own, bypassing historical sequencing.

No offense, but according to my understanding of Koran, from my relative point of viewing,the term,the word or the concept Muslim or Musliman it is a universal concept,and it is not a copy-righted property to any mainstream religion including Islam.

The equivalent word in English of the word Muslim, as in Koran,it will be the word; Faithful to the One God (in it's full and proper meaning).

Abraham was and still is the Most Faithful among man.He was and still is the highest pinnacle,among man, of the Faith to the One God Almighty as matter of fact.

In this context, I think, the Koran states that Abraham is a Muslim.
Through the name of Abraham, in Koran, actually the word Muslim comes to a meaningful form and shape.

The word Muslim applies, I think, to every one Faithful worshiper,(regardless of his belonging based religion), to the One God Almighty that Abraham had total faith in.

Every thing else, I think, it is down to the interpretation than, among us, the earthlings.

One thing, among many others that the Holly Bible and Koran have in common, it is the teaching, the instructing and the guiding towards the giving and against the taking.

Islam it is a religion born of and based on the Koran, in the principal.

Cheers. :-)

When you ignore historical sequencing as not being relevant, one can understand believing that Jesus'mother and Moses'sister are one and the same! You are arguing thelogical issues that are not arguable because they are BELIEF, and commonly held beliefs by Jews, Christians and Musslims are not necessarily true to other belief systems! Other points of view demand historical sequencing as being relevant!

In the Holly scriptures the word BELIEF it is scarce, much more scarce then in your replying, I think.

There is The Book of Joshua included in the Holly Bible (in The Old Testament).

According to the Old Testament Miriam was the Moses sister and was living in the Moses Tent.

Joshua also was living in that Tent at that time.
It is stated also that Joshua never left the Tent(probably till the Tent became a Tabernacle).

It is also clearly stated that only the Moses closed family was allowed to reside in that Tent.

That JOSHUA was the first and the last leader of the Israel as a nation at that period of time.
He was the higher ever human authority in the land of the first ISRAEL as a nation.
So much so that after him no one could fit in.

As far as I know, the name Jesus is no where to be found in Koran.
The names Joshua and Jesus are closely related and similar names but are not the same name.

The Book of Joshua it is a real outstanding writing.
The expression of that writing is quite close to the Koran's expression (at least so it seams to me).

As far as I know,the all long lasting religions are born of and stand on the old scriptures that are considered holly or divine,according to the related source.The BELIEF it is only a initiating entry point.

When it comes to the believing and the belief systems, I really do doubt that you can find two people that believe the same and would not argue over it, even when they belong to the same orthodox religion.

Cheers. :-) :-)

Most people belong to their individual religion by just having been born into it! Can you concieve of how many different religions have arizen in History of Mankind without a desire, or at least permision, from God that it should be so? Competition is what rules evolution of culture, and the existance of so many religions is the way to assure competition! I cannot believe that God and the Devil are in a competition where they collect souls like stamp collectors do their hobbie!
We are experiencing because of the conflicts between religions, the creation of a culture that must be based not only in freedom of religion, but a civil law that must be free of Religion!

Well spoken!

When you understand the "power" of GOD (by just understanding the size of the Universe), there is no such thing as even thinking about God and the Devil are in competition, because there is non. God created devil; he has the power to "eliminate" him; period!

Civil law can never be complete and it is created by man, as such man can modify it to his whims and fancy (by his lust, arrogance, etc.). Thus the ultimate law are those from God. The big question is from whom (which GOD / which holy book)? Shouldn't it be the most complete?

Let me rephrase that last questions correctly: "Shouldn't it be the one that is COMPLETE"?

Who among men can deem to be the one that judges what is complete and what is not? That is why secular law must be a-religious because it must satisfy all, even atheists!

That is exactly why I did not specify which religion is the most complete to you, because that would be too arrogant of me. I know that you are a learned person, therefore you are already given the opportunity to seek what is right. To find the complete religion is quite simple but you have to have an open mind.

Take all the religions that you want (obviously the major ones should be good enough) and put it in a matrix format. List all the necessary \*prerequisites that signify the completeness of what should a religion be and have. And start finding out about it in each religion and start marking or giving points to each religion and its' prerequisite. The religion with the most total points should be the complete religion.

The prerequisites should have an answer to all aspect of mankind (religious and "so called" non religious); not only spiritually but how our life should be governed for the benefits of all mankind.

Examples of those prerequisites (some are so fundamental):

1. Does it answer on what should be the behavior of man?
2. Does it look into how a country should be ran?
3. Does it have a financial model on how a country or financial system to be used?
4. Does it hinders progress?
5. Is that religion compassionate (shouldn't it be!).
6. Does that religion looks after not only to the individual but the community, and mankind?
7. Is it logical? Is it compatible with logic and science?
8. Does it addresses the role/function of man and women?
9. Does it recognize the contribution and rights of not only man and women but also animals, plants & trees, the environment, etc.
10. Does the ritual of a religion makes sense? (Example: I built a statue and then I,the maker of that statue, start praying on it...)
11. The list goes on and on; the more the better because as you starting ticking or giving points to each religion you will start to see which is the better one!

But does that prove that that is the "right" religion? Good question..., because it does not! We; mere humans can never know, but by logic shouldn't the best (that answers the most questions) be the right one? What do you got to loose?

Most people belong to their religion by the accident of birth! Most everyone does not choose a religion but falls into it by complete chance! The prejudices that all religions with their traditional rituals make their addepts believe that theirs is the most perfect and advanced religion. If any religion were "better" that an other one, it would then prosper and out-compete the other one without the need of religious strife. The fact that religious strife does occur shows that there is no logical process involved when picking a religion--only chance! The sequential development of religions evolving from the previous belief and the resulting hatred of the evolved version considering the unevolved as "backwards", that is less complete, shows that religion does not unite mankind but just causes strife and disunity!
The code of Hamurabi of over 5 thousand years ago shows that the Jews did not really invent the ten commandments, and the now very scarse Samarians honoring the Pentateuch (Torah) but not accepting the other books of the Jewish Bible such as Kings and Judges, the Old Testament saying these are Laws of God, "you will neither add nor diminish..."while Christians come out with the "New Testament" which clearly is an addition to the Olde! Then Islam comes saying that Mohamed is the last Prophet and immediatelly the old struggle between South Arabians and North Arabians becomes a contradictory event with Shia and Sunni splits with completely different interpretations of Islam, each claiming the truth, as Catholics split off from the Greek Orthodox and then Split into Protestants and Catholics, and then Islam gives rise to Bahai and even newer sects; these events indicate with out any doubt, that no religion can possibly represent God's will because he would be then so fickle as to not have a will! The truth is that man cannot recognise the truth because of his prejudices and that the continous strife between religions as they evolve into more "modern" versions that the new addepts say is more complete, is nothing but intellectual chaos and untill religions stop evolving historically one cannot say which one is more advanced! The continous change in fact in practised religions is factual proof that the "true religion" has not yet developed and one after an other historically claim to be "the truth" over the older ones! For this reason we cannot impose any religion on our laws, because there is an insane number of religious trends all believing theirs to be the "Truth" and the "Last One", only for an other one to arise about every 5 or six hunderd years! What are the latest religions? Why are they not accepted by the immediatly close source that they evolved from? You cannot forget historical changes that had to occurr with Divine sanction, or else you are saying there is no God at the helm of the Universe! God must wish religious strife so that the truth will eventually come out as religions evolve on a time scale too long for an individual man, but short in geological terms. There are enough contradictions in the aggregated religious beliefs such that no man in all humility can claim to know the "Truth".

For your attention the word "atheist" in it's essential-principal concept,regardless of how it is used this modern days,it does mean; "the-without-many-gods".
It is the opposing concept to the "polytheist".
cheers. :-)

To start a never ending arguing, a question like;
"What university is the best and the most complete to attend and graduate from",it will do ,I think.

And I am sure that for many, the actual attending of any particular university or any schooling for that matter, has been down to that accidental factor,whether bin the birth,the age, the social class (belonging to) or any other social factor.

Many, had not and have not a real choice over it, but that does not mean that the schooling and learning is wrong.

Probably this may hold true in your own case to (,no offense intended :-),).

The way of schooling, education and teaching differs from country to country, even in the same country it differs from area to area.
The global collaboration of universities and schools this days,with all it's ups and downs, it is still a great fit towards a better learning and understanding, I think.

There are enough contradiction in the aggregated scientific knowledge this days such that no one in all humility can claim to definitely know anything for sure let alone the whole "Truth", but that does not mean we should turn our backs and be done with it.

The man's problem with the TRUTH lies not with the claim of knowing it but with the man's inability to accept even the simpler,factual, and every day little truths subjected to, due to the displeasing and dislike, I think.

Cheers. :-) :-)

By trivializing the essential differences between religions, which have caused men to kill other men in the name of God, you are making my point: One, as a human being cannot really distinguish the truth, but yet all religions claim they do, and all offer the means to communicate with God, a requirement necessary in order to do God's will! Please pick any religion, so we can discuss the apparent inconsistencies to show why it cannot be the truth as it evolves historically into differing belief systems in strife with the supposedly fundamental initial principals! It is not a logical process that religions offer to get addepts, but clever use of recognizing humman weaknesess and the use of them to trick the candidate into accepting the religion being offered as the truest, thus the best! Even Atheism is a religion being offered to the public. Nazism, Marxism-Lennism, consumptionism, "scientific way-of-life", are newer religions that have been recently been offered to the credulous public looking for a crutch to face the lack of truth in most failing societies!

By not repplying because of fearing to create doubts among your own faithfull because of considering doubt a failure of any particular religious belief, you are only confusing yourself more! Doubt is good and a symptom of recognizing the greatness of God compared to man, for only God can have no doubt! The christian view-point that original sin is inherited and needed to be erazed with blood, and the jewish view that dissobeying God is the original sin, reflect the deeper sin of wanting to be like God and know absolutely the complete difference between Good and Evil, by being like God; that is the real sin. Are you sure that that is not what we are suffering from? Doubt that makes us think before we irrationally act is the greatest gift from God and a guarantee of free-will being the cause of our good deeds. If we surrender our free will to the action of powerfull prejudices force-fed into us a children, we are not doing God's will!

If by my words you think I am doing the work of the Devil, then God could easily strike me down to avoid making the faithfull doubt. But God does not want man to not think for himself, or else he would not have given man a brain! God does want internal religious strife in man's soul to help approach although never reach the truth, this some people call true Jihad, but to wantonly kill people for their thoughts not being acceptable to ones belief, is a great sin, for it is killing oneself as well for not being able to bear the doubt that these thoughts might cause!

"Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing."

For man to use God (or the Devil for that matter) not to confront man's errors and responsibility is a grave sin perfomed by attempting to eliminate DOUBT, God's greatest of gifts.

Sir i unable to place the quotation that you have provided - can u please give the reference too

In•Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing.
◦Original: ?????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????????????????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ?????????????? ?????? ????? ???????????? ?????? ??????? ???????
◦The Qur'anQur'anLoading Topic Overview... (??????), Sura 8:17 ///this same forum under quotations, I copied this.

The Bible both Olde and New have as many contradictions as well! So most "pearls of wisdom" no matter where you find them, must be taken with a grain of salt! The Quorán is related to the "Bible" in this way as well. No offence made towards Bible or Quorán, books that I respect but I know they are influenced by man's folly although the might have come from God!

There are many relationships between Islam and Christianity. Some of the concepts are good and just in their applications, but being works of men, have some flaws as well. The fact that religions are evolving still, makes it impossible for man to say this is the absolute truth of God!

Sir I fail to see the connection between the context on which the Sura/quotation was reaveled and what you are attempting to say . If understand correctly you are trying to make the point that we/humans simply cannot blame some supernatural agency for all our mistakes, and I concur with that to some extent. A simple search in Wikipedia for sura 8/AL Anfal (and also on following the link marked 1 in Reference there) I came across the following information, that shows that the verse was revealed in connection with the battle of Badr, the first real battle of Islam, in which the muslim side was hopelessly outnumbered and yet still won. Ubay son of Khalaf, was once captured in battle and later released for a ransom. When he was released he woed to kill the Prophet. And later when he in his horse was charging the Prophet intending to kill him , the Prophet took aim and threw a spear which hit Ubay in the clavical which was not covered by his armour. It was in this context that the verse
8;17 was revealed that the Lord clarifies - that all such vain attempts by the wrongdoers to kill his Prophets will fail as he is under His protection. The full verse continues ....

" It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things) (translation -YUSUFALI)

I do not see, how in these serise of incidences, man is trying to blame the Lord for his mistakes. The Quran clearly states in several places that we all will have to pay for our mistakes and even an iota of sin/wrongdoing will not be overlooked.

p.s: As the heading of this thread clearly states that its on similarities of Christianity and Islam , perhaps starting a new thread with clear heading of discussion on the 'Ultimate Truth' or 'Crituque on Religion' will be more suitable for the type of discussion we seem to be having here lately- as starting such a new thread specifically with that intention, in mind will attract more commentaters who are intrested on those topics rather than the few who blunder in here hoping to read on the similarities of the two religion based on the heading here.

I my self am quite sure that the religions((in principal)(ones based not in man's dogma)) and any of their in between essential differences(if there is any such as) were not and are not the real cause for men to kill other men.With or without, man would have killed man all the same,probably in the imaginary case of the absence of the God's related religions,man would have killed and destroyed even more.

Killing in God's name is only one more excuse of man in that very long list of man's excuses to kill.

"Lack of compassion, the inability to understand the principal difference between the giving and the taking,the excess on choice and want,lack of self control,lack of proper self analyzes,self abuse,lack of proper self judgment,lack of proper respect (in general) towards virtues and basic principals,lack of honor,excess in passion,inability to truly forgive and ask for forgiveness,inability to properly define it's own image(no understanding of the Free-Will),abusive tendencies towards perversion, inability to properly strike a self balance,lack of proper social and natural self positioning,lack of Trust,lack of self clarity,conditional and self denial."

These are but some of the fundamental causes that in their own or combining drive man to murder and self destruction,I think.

The Holly Scriptures and Koran that the religions we are discussing about are born of,do address these issues,teach,educate,instruct and guide man how to grow out of these a better man.That is I think what makes these religions one and the same in principal, regardless of man's relative judgmental point of reference.

The Holly Scriptures(Holly Bible and others),Koran, the God's will,is all about helping man out of the self-destruction limbo and towards the evolving to Man, I think. And the rest is up to man.

As to picking a Religion to discuss,I would pick the Christianity. Please you have to try and keep the discussion around the Scripture(Holly Bible)and also in regard to the topic's fundamental, if you still up for it.

Also you have to forgive me for not been able to reply quickly in time.
You have to understand that my time in the line it is very limited.I do check my emails only ones a day at the best.
Do not know about you but for me it takes some time to put my thoughts in writing,my typing is slow and the English is not my native language. Have to be a bit patient with me.
Cheers. :-)

Christianity first split into Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic. Islam broke-up into Shia and Sunni. Christiandoom then produced Protestantism, which broke up into many sects. Islam broke into several sects as well, for instance the Sufis and Bahai. They are very simmilar and all think that their version is more complete!

The further one gets away from Rome in Europe, there are more Protestants. The further one gets away from Mecca, there are more and more Shia. Is this a valid conmparison? Why in furtherest extent of Islamic conquests (Iran) are there more Shias? Is the issue of centalism versus federalism common to both Islam and Christiandoom? There are indeed many similarities in the historical development of christianity and islam! Will the European 70 year's war have a Shia/Sunni parallel in Islam?

Islam permits anyone to practice any religion and Islam do not prosecute any other religion.

As for making the comparison to selecting the best university to selecting the "best religion" (by whiten). That comparison is actually a good idea because we would eventually find the best, not necessarily absolute 100%, but those with the highest score could be termed as the best. That method is the logical and \*scientifically (\*statistically) to prove the best. That should be man's endeavor.

But regrettably, man is arrogant. They would come up with any excuses to find fault and disagree even if the fact and truth is staring right in their face.

That is why in my opening (of my earlier reply), one must have an open mind and not put a barrier straight away.

Anyway, you (D1vidRab) are right in saying that during the course of time religion will change, but actually it does not! It is man that changed it, (or they simply would not follow the right path of that particular religion).

So to answer you about the division of religion; such as Protestant and Catholic or Shia and Sunni; aren't those the manifestation of man's arrogance, and succeeded to proliferate through power (e.g. physically, economically, psychologically, etc.). And the most powerful power in play now is through psychological means.

It it is more apparent today then ever before and the latest "religion" that is coming into play: The Human Rights. In its basic function it is good (not as a religion), in ensuring that humans are protected, but slowly new things are creeping in; rights for same sex marriages, rights for self-terminating (euthanasia), etc. Which is wrong. It boils down to power (man) that destroy themselves.

Anyway you (D1vidRab)also mentioned that all action are by way of God. In a way that is true, but on another; you must remember that God gives man the ability to think, therefore through man's own thinking and action that he kills. But that's another topic altogether. onlymoin is right; maybe we should come up with another thread as suggested by him.

Coming back to the original topic: Yes there are similarities between Islam and Christian. But the "existence" of Islam is in filling up the gaps that are in Christianity, as the same for Christianity in filling up the gaps to the religions before that.

Maybe you (D1vidRab) are right that there may be a new one every 500 years (or more), but to date there is none in comparison to those that are from Christianity or Islam, not even close. So in the meantime I am happy in following the faith that is the best.

I have been approached by Bahai missionaries and have read some of their books on their history, and have found discouranging remarks about Jews! Such as I have heard some Muslims do in similar ways! They believe that they are the most "advanced" continuation of Jewish, Christian and Muslim traditions! They are just as convinced that they posess the truth and have "the best" and most advanced of religions. Jews attacked Samarians for not accepting the later books of the Old Testament after Moses's Pentateuch (Torah) and there are only about 3,000 Samarians left! I see a historical pattern in all religions to debase and criticize the previous version of their religious origins! Do Jews praise the Code of Hamurabi? No! It is the precourser of the ten comandments! No religion praises or is tolerant with its precoursing belief system, nor are humans willing to accept the evolution of religious beliefs past their present one! If Islam really possesed the whole truth, why do Shia and Sunny compete for addepts? Why do they kill each other in the name of religion! History teaches a grim lesson on what newer and more "advanced" religions do to their precoursers. I am beguining to think God is sick and tired of humans and is just sitting back and watching us kill each other over just empty words! Only latelly is the truth comming out over what We did to the Neandrethals, but that is an other story. I bet we called them sons of Apes as we slaughterd them.
By ignoring and lying about History to serve our beliefs such as we are not annoyed by doubts, we have held-up the advance of mankind.

"Islam permits anyone to practice any religion and Islam do not prosecute any other religion."

This is not true in Saudi Arabia, for instance! Any religion is very open-minded when it is in a minority! Muslims in India are the dearest and most open-minded people because they know the prejudice agaist them from the non-Muslim mayority. In Saudi Arabia, the public practice of any religion different than Sunni Islam is forbidden by law and the price for Apostasy from Islam is Death! By this same logic, if one believes that Islam is the very first religion from the time of Adam being by appointment the first Muslim, then any non-Muslim today must be an Aposthate and should be killed since his ancestors must have been Muslims! This belief is very parallel to the Catholic belief of the Spanish Conquistadores in the New World, that when exploring, they would kill any native children below the age of reason in order that they should not go to Hell!
You are right in saying that Islam has much of Christian-Type beliefs in its make-up, and this concept might be useful to attract Catholics to Islam, but it is not a notion that is a compliment to Islam but on the contrary is demeaning! Thus to say that Islam is the spiritual inheritor of Christianity is not meritorious at all, but demeanning, and thus belongs logically in the topic being discussed!

According to the Old Testament,in Solomon time,Israel became the most powerful and richest ever nation(Kingdom) of that period of time.

Beside this,because there is a fundamental difference between the religion and the practicing of it,that Israel did end up destroyed(more like self destroyed)as it was forewarned and foretold.

The flows in the practicing of the religion or the flows of the man's institutional form of the religion , I think, could not and should not be blamed on the Religion itself. I mean the proper religions,the long lasting(for not saying the everlasting), the ones of the holly scriptures and of the God's Word ,and not the man's dogma based ones.

Now if, what you saying is that beside the common grounds between Christianity and Islam as religions, that in essential uphold the same Faith to the One God Almighty, there is also similarities in the ups and downs,mistakes and fault during the mans historical practicing of these religions,then I can understand your point.

The Holly Bible stands a lot lot higher than the Conquistadores, even in the case of them calling them self's Christians.

And Koran stands a lot lot higher than Islam itself let alone any sect or derived form of Islam,I think. .

Cheers. :-)

Perhaps God was punishing the mass killings of all the people of Jericho by Joshua's troops, where the only survivor was woman of ill-repute that betrayed her people! In all honesty we must say that neither Arabs nor Musslims occupied Jericho then! Religion(s), like anything else, must be Judged by acts and achivements, not by the "Book" a people honor and supposedly follow! Musslims are the same as everybody else in this respect and the Quoran has not made any appreciable difference from the Old and/or New Testaments on their followers! Whether Religion has failed Man or Man has failed his chain of "better" evolving Religions is irrelevant!

Please recall that the Conquistdores was the remnants of those that succesfully with the aid of God according to their beliefs expelled the Moors from Spain and thus the Spaniards and their descendants are exempt to this day from the rule forbidding the consumption of red-meat during Easter! Bobadil(Spanish name that is probably incorrect) was the last Caliph in Granada whom was a Pacifist interested in Human Rights at the time, supposedly against the militarily sound advice of his mother!

The Christian trinity arose as a concept in the early Christian Church when the target audience ceased to be the Jews quarelling between themselves about Pharises and Sadducees after the complete dissappearance of the Priestly Kohanim Class and spiritual affairs being lefy in the hands of minor legal officials, the Rabbys. The more logical target audience then became the Greek slaves in the Roman Empire. The common everyday language then in use atn the time of Christ was Aramean and perhaps two or three books of the "New Testament" were initially writen in that language. By trying to win addepts in the Greek speaking lower classes of the Romans, by making some sort of peace with classical Greek polytheism by introduction of the trinity as well as the Virgin Mary occuping the place of the Godess Athena. The many Saints occupied the space reserved for the Greek Minor Gods and Godesses (Why would Islam want to take this up as a spiritual inheritance from Christianity?). Here lies a big difference between Jews and Christians: The Saints as minor goods ruled by the Trinity occupied Heaven and the Devil had Hell (Greek Hades or underworld). Judaism has no geographical distinction between Hell and Heaven and eternal fire as punishment is not a logical Jewish punishment for bodiless souls; Islam went with the Greek ideas and even addopted the Greek notion of the Gyneseum and called it the Harem! The position of Women in classical Semitic Societies was not one of complete subjugation as was with the Greeks, as can be inferred from the rules of Chess (an ancient Semmitic game) were the Queen is really more active and agile than the King! Why would Islam want to addopt these Greco-Christian notions that are so primitive! Early Judaism was probably influenced by Hindus that considered that Hell was the absence of the presence of God, rather than a geographical place. In the Old Testament there is mention of more advanced "Angelic" type creatures that found the "Daughter's of Man" comely and thus copulated with them! This I would guess, I do not claim to know it true, is a Greek idea as well that snuck in into the Old Testament and is obviously impossible if one accepts the reality of DNA ruling reproduction. The pre-Islamic concept of Huries some how got through the early Islamic stages as well as Jins and other Semitic preIslamic superstitions that seem to have parallels in Judaism such as Lilith. Obviously if Salaam and Shalom are part of very simmilar cultures, Islam should have more affinity for Judaism than for the heavily Greek influenced Christianity! Thus the primitive and by modern days very disgusting features are present in all of the three mayor religions! In fact one might speculate that Abraham's irresponsibility in taking up with a slave girl at a rather advanced age, definitelly not becoming to a supposedly wise man, caused very bad feelings supposedly still present to this day! I just cannot see the world's so called mayor religions very suitable as examples for family life and to be emulated! I believe these historical facts need to be annalised for their content and be applied to the evaluate the moral validity of all of the so called Mayor Religions! I would think modern Muslims would be embarrased having so much in common with Christians and Jews!

Please correct in above when I said target audience y meant target market, as English is not my primary education language as well!

In the New Testament it clearly says that there will arise with the help of great evil a series of false prophets, so convincing that even some of the Just will be led astray! Does the Quorán have a similar Sura? I would have been so embarrased to let such an obvious theological error enter into my religion, but of course I am not, or ever claimed to be any kind of a prophet! I can prove it by my investments going to Hell in the stock-market!

In the Old Testament Moses himself(the God's Most Devoted Servant) ends up punished, for his own faulting,by been not permitted to set foot in the Promised Land.Same happened to his own older brother.

Even Miriam their sister was ones punished and expelled for a week or so from the Tent in to the wild desert.

This tells man that even the most just among, are prone to faulting, error and mistakes.As far as I know there is no where in the Holly Bible,Koran or any other Holly Scriptures, to be found any statement or promise that the following of the Path of Faith to The One God Almighty will be easy by any standard.

Again the faults and mistakes of man, due to his own flows, as explained in the previous discussions, can not be blamed on the Religion or the Holly Scriptures and God's Word.

Now as I understand,your argument(in this reply)it starts with stating of some, so to speak historical events that could or could not be entirely true as described,but the point remains the same;"You keep blaming the Religion for the man's historical instances of folly".

Please do not misunderstand me. You are entitle and free to think as you please and hold your own opinion and judgment.

Where it comes to the ancient Greek culture and religion and the influence of it in the Christianity, one has to consider the influence of the ancient Egyptian culture and religion in the very creation of that Greek culture and religion.

The Jacob's family and his people were too familiar with that culture ones upon a time but that does not mean that what was promised and given by God it was not true and not real.

I do not think that it is God's fault for man's neck been still stiff.

And if there still be quarreling that too is not God's fault.

There is to many opinions around about hell and paradise that if we jump in to discuss about, we most probably end up fusing even more that quarrel. My own opinion is that the one dimension of understanding, among many, of the hell and paradise is; "place the same,man different".
Heaven and Paradise even been underlining each other as concepts are not the very same one concept.
Heaven as a concept means up-there, and regarding Paradise, Heaven stands more like a time-space underlining pointer. Please understand this is only my understanding and it could be wrong any way.

The problem of man with the Holly bible lies more with the man's lack of understanding it than any thing else.

man's selective attitude towards knowledge and information,man's one dimension way of thinking,man's tendency to see what he wants to and not what really must see,are but some of the reasons for man failing to properly understand.

All the Holly Scriptures and Koran do instruct and clearly demand for the understanding.

The greatness of the all Holly Scriptures and the Koran stands also in their multiple dimension formulated expression of thought, so much so that no any single human mind can produce,so much so that even this modern days many are still trying through code breaking to get some more understanding,though despairing that is.

Despite all this we are supposed to understand it but still keep failing to.
And the excuses are but many and never ending.
If one looks only to find reasons and excuses to blame, one may find many but it will be removed even further from the understanding and the seeing.

That is What I think.

Cheers. :-)

Most of the concepts about Heaven and Hell in Christianity and Islam are not of Jewish origin, but Greek! Both Religions attribute these to the Jews-that is gross historical ignorance for religions that claim to be more advanced and the evolved from more backwards ones, not to see and understand their real origins. Judaism on the other hand was severely critical of the exodous-time type Jews that are fossilized in the few remaining Samarians. The supersticions of Jinns in Islam, Witches in Christianity and similar ancient concepts in Judaism, such as Lillith, supposedly Adam's first wife before Eve, shows to me that there has not been a logical evolution of religious concepts but undisciplined wishful thinking and stupid interpretations on the part of the more evolved religions about their origins! Muslims speak in the same breath about Christian Priests and Jewish Rabbis not realizing or knowing that the Kohanim or the desendents of Moses's Brother Aaron, levite priests, dissappeared from Jewish way of life after the Babilonian Exodous and that Judaism became torn between Pharises and Saducces, and Rabbis took over religious and spiritual activities allmost by accident In other words those that say we are the inheritors of Jews and Christians do not know what they are talking about! In all honesty, Muslims are not more ignorant than Christians historically, and many Christians believe the Jewish Temple (note no plural!) had ritual "practicing Virgins" and that Mariam was one of such! I will not accept comments by supposedly religiously more advanced experts that do not know their own History and where their beliefs come from!

Forgive me for not able to reply 'completely' in this response but will put some points to ponder first.

Even you (D1vidRab) rightly said that there are elements from the Holly Scriptures, the Bible and the Koran that may be "extracted" from Greek or Egyptian origin. In Islam there are two types of prophets; one that was enlightened by God but the knowledge is for himself only (and his immediate family) (i.e. "Nabi"), and the other is for himself and to be spread to the community at large(i.e. "Rasul", e.g. Moses, Christ & Muhammad). Herein lies the possibilities and the probabilities that some of this Prophets were from Greek or Egyptian origin (or God knows where!), that some of their personal and/or community teachings "get into" the text of the various religious documents. And that is exactly what I have explained; that in each periods those Prophets were teaching the words of God but it was "time specific"; i.e. meant for that particular period. As time progresses the civilization gets more complex thus a new prophet emerges with new and additional revelation from God.

By the way you (D1vidRab) said that there are historical facts that should be analyzed which I agree 100%, but bear in mind what is correctly pointed out by (whiten)of "...man's selective attitude towards knowledge and information". An interesting case in point; there was a study made regarding people and their Christian beliefs before and after seeing the movie The Da Vinci Code, and it turn out almost 50% start doubting their own beliefs after seeing the movie!

What is written by man will be based on his perception, interpretation and personal (or perceived community) interest. The further back we go back in time the more murkier it becomes.

Therefore the most recent revelation becomes more relevant. Even Islam is evolving or coming out with new laws(but not the fundamental ones as spell out in the Koran); an example is on the moral issues of human cloning. Many basic or fundamental law is already there in the Bible Koran, etc. But look at the so called modern man-made laws; where anything goes. We are now living in a period where 2 wrongs made a right. Numbers count because it gives power (to change), it doesn't matter whether the change is morally, religiously or ethically wrong; man's greed and arrogance dominates those things.

That is why the key question is what is the right path, and man should based that decision on being rational it the selection. What is history is history, the present is where we need to take action for a better future.

My main point is this: The so called religions comming out of Abraham's personal relationship with God (about seven different ones!) are flawed and internally incoherent and intolerant of each other in many serious ways! The very fact that all the sequencial derivations criticize the previous stages of evolution as being backwards and untrue without even knowing the historical facts that makes them different! The main fact that stands out is that they have failed in making Humanity better. Hence the results show they have failed in their objectives. The arrogance that arises because each one thinks God is on their side, makes me think that there is something wrong with any religion were man is believes he is intimate with God!

"My main point is this: The so called religions coming out of Abraham's personal relationship with God, are flawed and internally incoherent and intolerant of each other in many serious ways!"

Regarding "sequential derivations"- Islam doesn't see itself as a derivation of Abhramic religion but more of a correction to the flaws that have crept in due to the passage of time, to the original message of the Almighty which was given to Adam. Islam doesn't see itself as a continuation of the abhramic religion but it IS the Abhramic religion. It is the same religion that Adam followed , the same religion that Abhraham followed , the same religion that Jesus followed.
For example - Abhraham was not considered a pagan or a disbeliever but is granted the status of a true and exemplary Muslim - in the sense that he had submitted his will to the Almighty- the very definition of Islam. Also Jesus is considered in the same vein as a true Believer/Muslim and a follower of the Almighty- he is not considered any better or worse than Abraham, so one cannot argue about Islam being intolerant of the previous Abhramic religions. In Islam all the people who remained true to their prophet at that time will have salvation. So all the followers of Moses who remained faithful to his teaching will be saved, all the Christian ,during the life time of Jesus and little after, who remained faithful to Jesus' teaching will go to heaven. Islam recognizes all of these people as true Muslims. What Islam objects to and is totally intolerant of is the later additions and accretions that the people made to their religion which were never taught by their prophets.
Just as in the the Bible , in the story of Moses, when he went to mount Sinai/Arafat for 40 days and returning back to his people, saw them worshiping the gold Bull was outraged and ordered it destroyed. Now one certainly cannot argue that the religion Moses was preaching was intolerant of the new religion of the Gold Bull - as the Gold Bull religion wasn't even a religion , the people just forgot what Moses was trying to teach and started to worship the Bull- similarly Islam is intolerant of the later invention of the people, and not the religion that was propounded by the prophets - and says that all the true followers of all the prophets of the Almighty will be saved. So instead of thinking of evolution of religion one should actually thing of Devolution of religion - one can plainly see that the Jews , Christians and Muslims of today are hardly the shining examples that their prophets told them to be. They haven't become better they have become worse. they most surely are not Evolving.


" The main fact that stands out is that they have failed in making Humanity better"

A Mercedes driven badly can still crash or go off the bridge. We dont blame the car we blame the driver. If the driver doesnt care to teach himself how to drive well, or doesnt follow the manual of instruction that came with the car, then we dont judge the car, we judge the driver. If you wanna find whether the car is good we find a driver who is pro-efficient in driving that vehicle. So too if we wanna find if religion has made a person better or not we should find a person who is pro-efficient in that religion- a person who follows ALL the rules of that religion and does not stick to only some of the rules and neglect the other when it suits his purposes. In almost all cases we will find such a person will be most kind, generous, and just. We will find him Exemplary.

I suppose if Islam is superior to History and thus it is irrelevant, you are the champion of this argument and I am defeated! Continue your journey in your Cadillac then and let humanity go to hell!

The Mercedes and the Cadillac even been two different names, in principal are names of cars, modern cars, a modern invention of man.

Due to bd driving both could (wold) crash.
And the point which is the safer car, depends in the one's relative point of reference and most probably becomes a never ending arguing, but the proper essential definition of a car remains; " a vehicle that is used to take man from one place to another, if there is a road or a proper path and also if man is learned-experienced and knows driving and also the driving is done with care, responsibility and a remind of the rules.

So in essential both are cars, a mans creation, crash-able.

The Religion (in the proper meaning) is not a car(a vehicle) but is the path. So far the practicing(the sight) of it has been the "car", and the man's driving of that vehicle has been too careless and mostly blindly ,according to history, I think.

I think the superiority always remains with the Path.
And there is no Path without the Sight

The cars(drivers) have to consider the path and their sight always to avoid unnecessary crashes and be safe.

There is no wining without loosing. one looses some to gain some, I think. :-))
Beside, before GOD we all stand looser, but best he who forgives and ask for forgiveness, I think.

Cheers. :-) :-)

I cannot accept your clearly stated thesis that History is irrelevant to Islam, because it is the self-coherence in the Building of the Road that irrevocably determines where and if it goes towards a meaningfull destination! Without really knowing History, you are just going around in circles in your fancy car, feeling very proud! When you compare Islam supposedly very analitically to Christianity, if not blinded by pride, you would realize that the Sunni-Shia strife is no different than mutual christian killings in Northern Ireland! By not knowing and willing to understand and accept your own History, you are not going anywhere even if you think you are going in a better style than others! The advent newer religions, of lets say Bahai, from within your midst shows the same wrong turn was taken by Islam than by Christianity on the road to nowhere! You are no better than Christians in actual results! Thus I suppose that this will end the topic being discussed, the simmilarities beween Islam and Christianity-both are very similar in the actual results on humankind!

History is relevant to a certain extend because it would shows the evolution of human behavior in relation to the given situation at that period of time. Let the situation be war, "introduction" of religion, financial crisis, etc. But till today we still see sufferings, greed, more wars, etc, as if history have taught us nothing. More so when history is recorded to distort the true facts (that the reason I said "... to a certain extend..." because in most cases history fits mans' imagination and personal agenda).

Your (D1vidRab) conclusion (...Islam and Christianity-both are very similar in the actual results on humankind!) actually does not extend to these 2 religions only, in fact it is to all religions, philosophies, doctrine, type of government (capitalism, communism, etc.). Just because as if man’s behavior will eventually leads to humanity’s self-destruction does mean we all should just give up because that would hasten Armageddon and the end of the world.

There is always salvation for the true believers, they should be rewarded, and they are important because it is still better to safe the right few instead of destroying all because of the wrong few.

The key question is finding the right path, finding it is actually easy; look for the most comprehensive path that answers most questions.

By the way, [whiten], I am interested to correspond with you to further discuss our affinity towards finding the right path. My email is gobek2005@yahoo.com.

Not wanting to have a closed mind.., [D1vidRab] you too can contact me there for any subject.

Regards.

Dear "ilfikluz" I am very happy to continue our discussion about the God's Religion and the Right Path,but as our discussions so far have been open ones; where every one that want to - can participate, I think we better keep it that way for now.

An open discussion, with all the ups and downs, is more interesting and more productive to all concerned, I think. In the exchange of the ideas and thoughts (no matter how contrary they could be to each other) the productive factor; "More there are - the better it is.", is an essential requirement, I think.

To facilitate it (or help with), there now is a new topic on the Islam discussion; " The Right Path. The God's Religion ......".

Every one is appreciated to participate on the discussion regardless of the view points they may hold.

"D1vidRa b", as an upholder of the free thinking, you too are expected to participate on that discussion. :-)

Thank you "ilfikluz", appreciated a lot. :-) :-)

ONE/SAME RELIGION:

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3:65 Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about ABRAHAM, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding? 3:66 Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is God Who knows, and ye who know not! 3:67 ABRAHAM WAS NOT A JEW NOR YET A CHRISTIAN; but he was TRUE in Faith, and bowed his will to God's (Which is ISLAM), and he joined not gods with God. 3:68 Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him (ABRAHAM), as are also 'this Apostle' (MUHAMMAD)and those who believe: And God is the Protector of those who have faith.

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Importance of MONOTHEISM:

5:69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in GOD AND LAST DAY, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and POLYTHEISTS,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God is WITNESS of all things.

PEACE!

I would add to this that not knowing history destines a repetition of it.

Christianity, in the beginning, received a huge boost in the RCC which caused it to age faster than other lesser known religions of the time.

This age seems to be the age of 'boosting' Islam, which is why it is growing so fast. If Islam cannot or will not look at the lessons of what happened in Christianity during its 'boom' period, then Islam shall suffer the same failings and woes, including the bloodshed and misery, that Christianity did.

Of course, this will only be proven by future history but, if I laid a bet now, I think it would pay off in a hundred years unless Islam gets wise fast and avoids the growing pains.

Dawn