There must obviously be gay muslims and i think they are the bastards that strap a bomb on their backs.Just imagine being forced to live in a religion that was created by a paedophile who dislikes gays.And whats worse is that if you are "outed" the believers of this warped religion will chop your head off.No wonder they strap a bomb to their back and end it all .But little do the radical muslims realise is that they are turning all gay muslims into martyrs.

First off me being a Muslim I find the things that you say about Muslims offensive, Second you speak of Islam from a point of view of someone who has no knowledge of Islam. The whole point about gays is ALLAH made union between man and woman, not man and man and woman and woman. Those people you hear about blowing up things do not have the true understanding of Islam. A true Muslim would never be gay and, a true Muslim would never kill himself or others.

So what do the gay people born into your religion do? Do they convert or move? Do they just live with it and take wives or husbands?

Dawn

Well first let me say thank you for the question. Second I dont know of any gay muslims. If they are gay they might hide it.

Charlene,
beautiful name by the way
you're welcome. I ask a lot of questions. Let's hope you find many of them worthwhile and stimulating. ::::grins:::


how do you feel about Muslim gays hiding? Do you think it's the proper thing to do or do you think something should be done to help those people?

Dawn

Ans. to the original post.

Q:What is the gay/lesbian population in other religions?

Its no gay muslims around at all, and if they are gay they are not muslims.

I dont know.

Because being a Muslim is between the Submitter to Allah (Muslim) and Allah, no one can ever be for sure what the gay population is among Muslims across the globe. However, whether one is gay or not is not really an issue directly addressed in the Qur'an with the exception of Lot, Abraham's nephew, having an aversion to the excessive homosexuality that was being imposed on him and his family. Although this "excessiveness" is presented as regards homosexuality, the Qur'an does not specifically identify homosexuality itself as being wrong, but that excessiveness can be almost anything.

Muslims throughout the world use the example of the story of Lot and the story of Sodom and Gommorrah as their basis for condemning homosexuality, but in reality it is unfounded. What is well-founded, however, is what the Qur'an states regarding adultery and fornication, so it does not really matter whether you are homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, asexual, intersexual, etc., so long as you do not have sex outside the bonds of marriage. In that light, one's sexual attraction is not an issue, but how one acts upon his or her sexuality certainly is.

I'm certain that there are gay Muslims without doubt, but gay Muslims who are executed in whatever fashion are executed according to the culture of the land they live in. Executing homosexuals is not found in the Qur'an; well, I have not come across it in the Arabic yet. As for prosecuting adultery and fornication, flogging is mentioned. With regard to Muslim states that execute a person who has a sexual preference, that is not Islamic. In fact, it is contrary to the Qur'an because the Qur'an tells us clearly that we are not allowed to shove religion down anyone's throat.

Jihad 401: NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION (256-260)(*)
2:256 (1) There is to be no difficulty in the Standard. (2) Certainly, the conscious realization (or understanding) of the temptation (seducement; seduction; allurement) was apparent. (3) Therefore, whoever rejects the tyranny [(طغوت tağut) the false gods] and believes in Allāh, (4) then certainly he should grasp the strong handle. (5) There are no breaks for it. (6) Allāh is Infinite Hearer, Omniscient. (*)

لَآ إِكۡرَاهَ فِى ٱلدِّينِ‌ۖ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ ٱلرُّشۡدُ مِنَ ٱلۡغَىِّ‌ۚ فَمَن يَكۡفُرۡ بِٱلطَّـٰغُوتِ وَيُؤۡمِنۢ بِٱللَّهِ فَقَدِ ٱسۡتَمۡسَكَ بِٱلۡعُرۡوَةِ ٱلۡوُثۡقَىٰ لَا ٱنفِصَامَ لَهَا‌ۗ وَٱللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ (٢٥٦)

256. (1) Lā ikrāha [√krh if’āla, acc., m., impf. act., Stem IV] fīd-dīni (2) qad tabayyana [√byn tafa’’ala, 3rd, m., sing., perf. act., Stem V] r-ruşdu [√rşd] mina l-ğayyi (3) fa-man yakfur biţ-ţāğūti wa yu’min billāhi (4) fa qadi istamsaka [√msk istaf’ala, 3rd, m., sing., perf. act., Stem X] bil-‘urwati [√’rw] l-wuŧqā (5) lā infiṣāma [√fṣm infi’āla, acc., m., Stem VII] la-hā (10) wa llāhu samī’un ‘alīmun

In 2:256(3)-(4), rejecting بِٱلطَّـٰغُوتِ (biţ-ţāğūti) which means tyranny or terrorism and believing in Allah are two given sources of evidence that you are really ignorant about Islam when you state "if you are 'outed' the believers of this warped religion will chop your head off." In another light, you really hit it on the mark when you state, "...little do the radical muslims realise is that they are turning all gay muslims into martyrs." because tyranny as you read in the verse above is forbidden in Islam. However, in Islam, what is coined "radical Muslims" is a faux pas because in Islam radicalism and extremism are forbidden in a faith that is an "ummah" or a neutral community/nation.

What you see as being Islam is not always represented by Islam, and Islam is represented in the Qur'an and the Torah as it was originally revealed to Moses as well as any other Scripture sent down by Allah in the past.

As-salaamu alay-kum Charlene. I appreciate your point. Let me give my perspective on what you posted point by point.

Your first point is well taken. Yes, what people say out of ignorance is often offensive, but it is often out of ignorance as you noted in your second point.

In your third point about gays, we really don't know that Allah made union between man and woman only, at least based on the Qur'an. Because the Qur'an supports the Torah, if the Torah that exists today was not corrupted, we could make your point based on what was sent down from Allah. The problem is that we all know that there is no longer a pure Torah in existence, so we cannot debate what Allah made as regards a union between two people.

Your fourth point about Muslims blowing things up, that depends on whether the Muslim is on the defense or offense. The Qur'an does exhort us to defending ourselves and Allah's religion, but what is termed "radical Islam" is indeed in conflict with the Qur'anic concept of "ummah" (neutral community or nation).

Now for the fifth point about a true Muslim, I have to disagree with you on that point because it is not about one's sexual attraction, regardless of how one came to be attracted to one gender or the other or both, but whether one is obeying the laws of Allah. For example, a homosexual may stay single all his/her life for whatever reason maybe because he/she does not want to commit adultery or fornication. Then in another setting, a homosexual may get married to the opposite gender while living a lie. That also is wrong and not in the spirit of the Qur'an. We don't know what Allah had in store for a person who is gay, however that may have happened.

As for the last point, that is very clear and to the point in the Qur'an so I can't say more than what you already stated.

Peace out, my sister!

As-salaamu alay-kum, Dawn:

What gay people born into the Muslim Faith do depends on what their conscience tells them to do. Being a Muslim is not about what others do, say, or believe. It's about what you do, feel, and believe in good conscience before Your Lord. I don't believe it is right that a gay person should have to do anything to please others except Allah. Being a Muslim is about submitting yourself to and worshipping Allah and Allah alone, not other people. To engage in any type of tyranny against a gay person is totally non-Islamic according to the Qur'an 2:256. The fact that there are Muslim states that DO kill gays only evidences how far they are from having read and studied their Qur'an. If they do not believe in submitting to Allah, then how can they be a Muslim state? That goes for anyone engaging in tyranny while proclaiming to be a Muslim at the same time.

Peace out, sister.

Nono

I dont know what point that you are trying to make. If you are a Muslim, I want you to count the number of gay muslims you know. Stop lying to yourself you know Allah made union between man and women. Also count the number of gay Muslim couples getting married?

As-salaamu alay-kum, Charlene:

Tell me how I would know. I don't meddle in the private affairs of others, so why would I count? Even if I did meddle in the affairs of others, why would I care how many Muslims are gay or not? I only know what I know, and I know that Islam is not between me and other Muslims. I am not the Lord of the Day of Judgment. It's between the Muslim and Allah. If you think otherwise, please tell me where you get your information from. My opinions don't count when my source for information is the Qur'an. I look forward to hearing from you on this one! lol

Peace out, sister!

AoA NKingston..Kindly let me know the source of same-sex orientation from Quran plz...!Thx.

As I stated before, there is no real basis regarding same-sex-orientation in the Qur'an. There is only the basis for condemning adultery and fornication. To commit adultery one or both parties has to be married, by definition. To commit fornication one or both parties has to be not married. Adultery and fornication is condemned throughout the Qur'an, but as far as same-sex orientation being condemned or supported there is no reference in the Qur'an except where Lot shows disgust over the excessiveness of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, including excessive homosexuality. Maybe I don't understand your request? When I say say there is no real basis to condemn something, then obviously that means I have no source for that something.

Statements of NK from his previous posts:
............................................

"Although this "excessiveness" is presented as regards homosexuality, the Qur'an does not specifically identify homosexuality itself as being wrong, but that excessiveness can be almost anything."

"the Qur'an states regarding adultery and fornication, so it does not really matter whether you are homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, asexual, intersexual, etc., so long as you do not have sex outside the bonds of marriage. In that light, one's sexual attraction is not an issue, but how one acts upon his or her sexuality certainly is." NK

"we really don't know that Allah made union between man and woman only, at least based on the Qur'an"

"For example, a homosexual may stay single all his/her life for whatever reason maybe because he/she does not want to commit adultery or fornication. Then in another setting, a homosexual may get married to the opposite gender while living a lie. That also is wrong and not in the spirit of the Qur'an. We don't know what Allah had in store for a person who is gay, however that may have happened."

...........................................................

as par your statments brother Nkingston...

you need to be very careful in expressing yourself..that's what I see in many of the above remarks in this Topic/ Thread...hope you'll not get it 'wrong'

1- Quran doesn't address this issue 'directly'...so it's obviously not worthy of discussion at all..and is un-natural...for 'human-point-of-view'....an insult, a dis-honour...!

Biologically if such orientations/affiliations are observed in animals, then..it doesn't mean it should be 'normal' for humans to think that way....see how scientist become cheap in their approach...

In Muslim families when a left-handed child starts eating with his/her 'left-hand' ..he/she is stopped!!!!!and not given a 'choice'...This is a dangerous "freedom' and I don't believe in it...Do not mis-use Ayat "La ikraha fiddeen" (there's no compulsion in the religion...what is the religion for then??????????)

2- Prophet Lot/Lut's story can't be a meaningless reference..it definitely means 'something'..for us to learn from..!
Don't be like people who used to critised Quran, and said that it's 'Asaateer ul Awaaleen" Stories of by-gone people'..but it's not...each and ever story 'retold' in Quran has it's role in understanding the meanings of the teaching of Quran.

3- Allah started this world with the creation of 'a man Adam and his wife Eve'...it says it all...if we are 'smart'!

4-If marraige is a 'religious issue only' then marraige is possible between a man and a woman ONLY...do not extend your deductions or start assuming or give suggestion to people involved/oriented in sin,.... brother it's dangerous and fatal..and you are on a responsible side...remember!!!!!!!!!!!

I asked the counter-question..."what is the Gay/Lesbian population in other religions?"
....to snub the mischief of the person who asked the question and has vanished.....see!!!!!!!!!!!

There are other threads which also show how people can offend us...that's how they enjoy brother...Hijaab, Culture, Same-sex , 9-11... issues are just 'pranks'....

sincerely!

First of all, apparently English is your second language because while quoting me correctly, you make claims that I did not make as if I made them.

As I stated before, the Qur'an does indeed address the subject of adultery and fornication directly, but it does not address homosexuality "directly." Possibly, you don't know the difference between "directly" and "indirectly"? I suggest that you get a dictionary. Also I never made a claim promoting or condemning homosexuality. I did, however, make a claim that homosexuality is not "directly" addressed in the Qur'an. Where homosexuality is addressed grammatically "indirectly" - and I am led to believe that you have not read the the Qur'an in Arabic yet - it addresses excessiveness often mistranslated as "abominations" grammatically "directly" meaning that the abomination of excessiveness could be anything else that is excessive or immoderate in usage, practice, quantity, or quality.

The second thing that makes me think that English is your second language is that you did the same thing with my reference to Lot. I never devalued the story of Lot at all. I just stated the facts of the story as it is in the Qur'an grammatically speaking.

The third thing that makes me think that English is your second language, regarding Adam and Eve, did you know that not everyone in the world drinks tea and that rice is a primary staple in many countries?

The fourth thing that makes me think English is your second language, regarding your hypothesis regarding marriage, you provide no logical reasoning for your claim whatsoever. Since marriage IS an institution of religion, that is religion by its true definitions that apply, then marriage can apply to heterosexual unions, homosexual unions, bisexual unions, intersexual unions, union between a man and his dog... It all depends on what your religion is... at least as the laws regarding religion apply in the United States and as represented in the U.S. Constitution. This is not reasoning or logic. It's fact, dangerous, fatal, muddy, disconcerting, or not.

Now, to reiterate fact again regarding the initial question and relative to my previous answers in this post, how many times a day does each and every citizen of your country masturbate? Does anyone really care? I for one really don't because that's between them and their hands. I feel sorry for those who are short handed.

Knowing that such subject matters are pranks, if they offend you, why worry about them? I only respond to subject matters that I think are important, prank or not, whether the subject initiator is sincere or not. A lot of good things "can" come out of someone's levity.

So when you conclude with "sincerely!" do you expect me to believe that you are not feeding into your own prank? If you want me to believe otherwise, 1) learn to read English, 2) learn to think clearly - for example, learn to do an outline, and 3) don't take people out of context once you have quoted them in context. These three tips should help you respond more intelligently and will lead people to think you are sincere. Otherwise, I am going to assume you are just patronizing your audience whomever they may be. On the other hand, I speak to my audience with what apparently has merit, whether I am right or wrong, and in the meantime I am open to discussion as well as correction.

If being gay is outlawed in every religion, why would it be accepted in Islam?

To NK!

World population is 6780 million, out of them 340 million people speak English as their first language............

It doesn't matter at all which language one speaks, until and unless one can control what's coming out of his'her mouth or being written by his/her hands....Peace out bro....

Arabic is your second language..so your services might be doubtful...might as well!

To Charlene!

Your question has an answer within itself! True!

I know of many religions where being gay is accepted, but what does being gay have to do with Islam? Being gay is not directly addressed in Islam except by "personal interpretation" of what ones wants it to say about being gay. What transpires between an individual and his Maker is between him and his Maker. Does becoming a Muslim make a person Owner of the Day of Judgment?

Plz notice that the person who asked the first question mysteriously vanished in the respective thread and never participated. So it is possible that the same person 1-Enjoys the discussions in privacy or 2-Reappears with a different ID......:)
I prefer to be 'careful'...only! Thx

Statement: World population is 6780 million, out of them 340 million people speak English as their first language............
Response: So what type of toilet paper does this world population use?

Statement: It doesn't matter at all which language one speaks, until and unless one can control what's coming out of his'her mouth or being written by his/her hands....Peace out bro....
Response: What does this have to do with all the tea in China? When you communicate, it works better if you communicate in the language of the person you wish to communicate with, so apparently your point is extremely off base or you haven't taken your medicine yet.

Statement: Arabic is your second language..so your services might be doubtful...might as well!
Response: First, second, third, fourth, who cares? Is there something I said that was grammatically incorrect? If so, would you be so bold as to communicate in English what that error is?

Statement: Your question has an answer within itself! True!
Response: Point please...

Nono

Statement: Plz notice that the person who asked the first question mysteriously vanished in the respective thread and never participated. So it is possible that the same person 1-Enjoys the discussions in privacy or 2-Reappears with a different ID......:)
I prefer to be careful...only! Thx

Response: What difference does it make? If the subject matter has merit and the responses warrant merit as well, there's nothing to worry about... unless you're responding or participating with misleading intents.

I FORGIVE YOU FOR YOUR PREJUDICE MR. NK

Silent: I FORGIVE YOU FOR YOUR PREJUDICE MR. NK

Nono: Cute, but apparently you don't understand English too well. I displayed no prejudice to merit your forgiveness, but thank you anyway. I accept your forgiveness.

Being gay is an act against nature there for an act against God. It is also out of the fold of Islam. Its just not natural, just because Islam does not speak on something does that mean its not true?

To a satan "Brittharpe" who started this Topic.....

You must be enjoying the discussion in your privacy or by participating with another ID....which is a 'proof' of your cowardice....anyway...you must have learnt a pretty good lesson through this on going debate, so far, might as well!

I wouldn't have called you a 'satan' if you had asked the question in a different way...such as..
"Is being/becoming 'gay' allowed in Islam?"...but you chose to ask in a really wicked way....

...plus,

... if I say I love God then I can't say I love Satan, TOO, right!

..so obviously my God CANNOT allow a disgusting and an inhuman attitude which should be regarded as a SIN for sure and a disgrace to humanity!!!!!!!!!!


Now my questions to you are;

1-What is the gay population in your religion?

2-How would you count them?

3-Is gay-ism allowed in your religion?

4-Are you gay?'

5-If you are gay, do you still consider yourself a religious person?

6-Do you agree that 'gay-ism' (SATANISM) should be recognized as a seperate religion or cult for transgressors, which will take them out of the religion of 'humanity' and will make them closer to animals , OPENLY and will give them all the 'RIGHTS OF ANIMALS' they want yo enjoy?
(For animals "marraige/legal communion is not required....!)

Remember God punished Prophet Lut's People for their aggression and one day Western societies will be held accountable for their dangerous FREEDOM, too, Inshallah!!!!!!!!!

GENERALLY:

YES! "THERE'S NO COMPULSION IN THE RELIGION" according to "Quranic law"....which means "IN ACCEPTING THE RELIGION"..

AND ONCE YOU ACCEPT THE RELIGION, YOU NEED TO OBEY THE LAW...IF YOU CAN'T OBEY THE LAW ,IT'S YOUR CHOICE,BUT YOU CAN'T CHANGE IT EITHER!

BECAUSE,ONCE YOU ACCEPT TO JOIN A GAME YOU ARE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE GAME,IF YOU ARE NOT PLAYING PROPERLY,THEN RULES WILL NOT BE CHANGED FOR YOU, EITHER.................

PEACE!

AL QUR'AN...AL FUR'QAAN ( THE DISTIGUISHER OF TRUTH AND FALSEHOOD)

*********************************************************************

7;80 Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before!

7:81 "You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."

7:82 His people responded by saying, "Evict them from your town. They are people who wish to be pure."

7:83 Consequently, we saved him and his family, but not his wife; she was with the doomed.

7:84 We showered them with a certain shower; note the consequences for the guilty.

*********************************************************************

Im going to say this then lay it to rest. Silent the things you say are true. It does not matter if you are a Muslim or not being gay is wrong on so many levels.

Charlene! I'm a well-controlled and patient person myself..but I felt this discussion at the forum has OFFENDED "ISLAM" BEYOND MY EXPECTATIONS....so I wanted to be FIRM and to pay the guy( the starter) 'in the same coins'...and anyone else who will become mischievious to this extent should not expect any 'diplomatic-solutions' on such religious matters....at all!

I don't hate anyone personally..but I can't love 'mischief'...especially, against Allah!

Most of the participants at this forums seem to be from America and they seem to have no idea about how the rest of the world is going...Certainly their "standard of liberty' is like a 'statue of Stone' for the rest of God's people around this globe...and it DOES NOT represent the 'will' of the other side of the world, obviously!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If they all have a right to say what they want to say..then I have a right to believe ,what I want to believe...and I will not continue any arguments..for arguments sake....

I don't expect 'agreements'..and it doesn't matter at all!
............................................................

I strongly feel GAY-ISM and LESBIAN-ISM....(what-ever) is a FITNA = AN AFFLICTION OF THE MODERN WORLD and fighting it back is a JIHAAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As-salaamu alay-kum, Silent.

In reply to: AL QUR'AN...AL FUR'QAAN ( THE DISTIGUISHER OF TRUTH AND FALSEHOOD)

Actually, the following translation directly from the Arabic is more accurate than what you have provided.

Homosexuality (80-82)(*)
7:80 (1) When Lot said to his people, (2) “You bring to each other (2a) the excess (wastefulness, abomination, immorality) that never occurred therein to you (2b) among anyone from securlar world.” [Interpretation: (2) “You commit excesses (wastefulness, abominations, immorality) with each other that have never occurred among anyone before you from the secular world…”] 7:81 (1) “Indeed, you truly (1a) give the men to each other (1b) preference after the women, [Interpretation: (1) You really (1b) prefer (1a) the men with men (1b) rather than with the women.] (2) but you are extreme (wasteful, excessive, immoral) people.” 7:82 Replies of his people, however, was to have them (Lot and his family) leave the village. “They are a purified (pure, clean, remote) people.” (*)

وَلُوطًا إِذۡ قَالَ لِقَوۡمِهِۦۤ أَتَأۡتُونَ ٱلۡفَـٰحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِہَا مِنۡ أَحَدٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ (٨٠) إِنَّڪُمۡ لَتَأۡتُونَ ٱلرِّجَالَ شَہۡوَةً۬ مِّن دُونِ ٱلنِّسَآءِ‌ۚ بَلۡ أَنتُمۡ قَوۡمٌ۬ مُّسۡرِفُونَ (٨١) وَمَا ڪَانَ جَوَابَ قَوۡمِهِۦۤ إِلَّآ أَن قَالُوٓاْ أَخۡرِجُوهُم مِّن قَرۡيَتِڪُمۡ‌ۖ إِنَّهُمۡ أُنَاسٌ۬ يَتَطَهَّرُونَ (٨٢)

80 (1) Wa Lūţāan ‘iṭ qāla li-qawmi-hi (2) ‘ata’tūna [√atw yatafā’alūna,: yataaātawūna → yata’ātūna → أتأتو ‘ata’tūna, 2nd, m., pl., impf. act., Stem VI] (2a) al-fāḥişata mā sabaqa-kum bi-hā (2b) min 'aḥadin mina l-‘ālamīna 81 (1) 'inna-kum la (1a) ta'tūna [see verse 80] r-rijāla (1b) şahwatan [√şhw,fa’latan, şahwah n.f. (pl. şahawat)] Min Dūni An-Nisā' (2) Bal 'Antum Qawmun Musrifūna. 82 Wa Mā Kāna Jawāba [√jwb fa’āla] Qawmi-hi 'Illā 'An Qālū 'Axrijū-hum [√xrj, af’ilu, Stem IV] Min Qaryatikum 'Inna-hum 'Unāsun [√nws ‘ufa’lun, nas (pl. of insan), Perfective Passive n., Stem 04] Yataţahharūn [√ţhr yatafa’’alūn, Impf. Act., Stem V]

The meaning here transfers over from the Arabic, but the Arabic does not imply that Lot was sent to his people to tell them to repent. Granted, Lot states that they aspired to homosexual behavior, but their people go to extremes in this matter. Pickthal correctly translates “la” in verse 81 as “Lo!” and Shakir correctly translates it as “Most surely,” but Yusufali omits it all together. The Arabic “la” is an emphasis like verily, surely, how excellent, etc. The last note is that his people do not seek to be pure. According to the Arabic, they are purified or pure.

As for verse 81 supporting opposition to homosexuality is really not clear to me. What is clear to me is the fact that whether it was homosexuality, theft, murder, or whatever the case may have been in addition to homosexuality, whatever they did they did to extremes. As the saying goes, “Moderation in all things.” His people, as they are referred as, went to extremes with being impure, and that lack of moderation is what caused the acid rain to come down. That could happen to the whole earth even today as Global Warming may eventually be like. Meanwhile, I have found no justification from the Qur‘ān for any Muslim state to kill someone for being homosexual or even engaging in homosexual behavior. Neither do I find anywhere in the Qur‘ān any cause for punishment whatsoever for being homosexual except in the case of having sex outside the bonds of marriage, but then that would conflict with the compulsion of religion doctrine of the Qur‘ān by what definitions of religion that exist. Compare 27:55. In conclusion, homosexuality is not being condemned here, but rather excessive homosexuality where “Everyone is doing it; therefore, everyone must do it.” No room presented for bisexuality or heterosexuality or other sexuality. Indeed, what a waste!

Keep in mind here that my point is not to promote, condone, condemn, or make a statement about whether homosexuality is unnatural or not, but as far as making a claim - "Homosexuality is prohibited in Islam" - I do not believe that homosexuality is really an Islamic issue based on the Qur'an. Adultery and fornication, which can be heterosexual or homosexual, however, does indeed have its case made in the Qur'an.

With all due interest, I would like to see a case against homosexuality based on the Qur'an if there is such a case, but until then wherever there is a claim it requires equal evidence to maintain a status of fact. No fact has yet been properly established to such a claim. What has been used to base the claim that homosexuality is prohibited in Islam, on the other hand, is a claim yet to be proven and baseless, that is, based on the Qur'an that we translate and interpret from, and interpretation is quite different than translation. What you presented is pure speculation based on one's personal interpretation and not one's actual translation or justified interpretation as I have pointed out with my translation which crossed over directly from the Arabic.

I look forward to your cross examination of this subject!

Nono

Q:What does the word "shah-wa-tun" in Arabic mean?

Now my 'Mother Language' is going to beat someone else's first language with the same tactic called "Freedom of choice"

Urdu is very close to Arabic...(as English is far!)

Word Shah-wa-tun in Arabic has the same root as in Urdu for the word 'Shahwat' meaning lust/sexual desire, strictly.
(sh-ha-wa)

Word Fa-hi-sha-tun in Arabic has the same root as in Urdu for the word "Fahaashi" and "fahush" means indecency related to lust/sexual desire (sexuality), clearly
(fa-ha-sha)

Ask any Urdu-speaking person to verify what I've written here...if he/she has become 'immune'to someone's insulting behaviour.

Inference: Now given choice...for the word EXCESS by the ENGLISH people.....

...wastefulness, abomination, immorality....

I would certainly pick the most suitable translation...

.......IMMORALITY.............


Conclusion: Since, the word Fahishatun (7:80)...precedes the word....Shawatun (7:81)...which is more clear representation of the sexual sin, therefore the most justified translation of this EXCESS (so-called) is IMMORALITY/INDECENCY RELATED TO SEX.......

1-Another place with the same notions:

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27:54 Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an abomination, publicly, while you see?
27:55 "You practice sex with the men, lustfully, instead of the women. Indeed, you are ignorant people."
27:56 The only response from his people was their saying, "Banish Lot's family from your town; they are people who wish to be pure."
27:57 Consequently, we saved him and his family, except his wife; we counted her among the doomed.
27:58 We showered them with a certain shower. It was a miserable shower upon people who had been warned.
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Here in Ayat 27:54 Word 'Fahishata' is used in Arabic
Here in Ayat 27:55 Word 'Shahwatun' is used in Arabic

2-Let’s also check the same story again at another place in Quran:

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29:28 And call to mind Lot when he said to his people, `You commit an abomination such as no one among mankind has ever committed before you;
29:29 What ! Do you approach men with lust and commit robbery on the highway, and you commit abomination in your meetings ?' But the only answer of his people was that they said, `Bring upon us the punishment of ALLAH if thou speakest the truth.'
29:30 He said, `Help me, my Lord, against the wicked people.'

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Here if you read the first Ayat 29:28 in Arabic...you will find the word...Fahishata.....and before Prophet Lot started his address..he started with 'Innakum' Surely, Verily, You People.......
Now the word Fahishata/un or Shahwata/un is not repeated in the next Ayat , still the sense in his speech remains clear and undoubtful about the issue...that's why I chose the above translation regarding the suitability of the situation described there.

I believe that they are homos in islam peace out

I have been reading these posts and I am disturbed by some of them.

I see hatred here.

if someone is telling you that homosexuals are to be hated, I would suggest you question their understanding of God.

Judgment of sin is for God alone.
hatred is evil.
while you may recognize sin and choose to keep it far from your life and do not have to ACCEPT sin, you should not hate or judge the recognized sinner. Of ALL men, the wicked need our love THE MOST. This is the lesson of God for He has told us that He loves the sinner as much or better than He loves the sinless. If you don't LIKE that, tough cookies, them's the rules.

if you think homosexuality is wicked and gays are sinners, it is exactly those people you should love, if you understand God.

I have not read thru ever single post since I last posted, so if someone has already said this...we agree and this does not apply to you.

God's love and peace to you all
Dawn

Re: Post that began as follows:

I have been reading these posts and I am disturbed by some of them.
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As-salaamu alay-kum, Dawn!

You really hit it on the mark when you said, "if someone is telling you that homosexuals are to be hated, I would suggest you question their understanding of God." These homosexuals are the creation of the same God who created everyone else. As you see from my very progressive perspective, the Qur'an does not say anything about homosexuality directly, and it, furthermore, does not teach us to hate. When I see so much hatred, especially coming from Muslims, regarding homosexuality and I witness such homophobic insecurities, I cringe.

I have a lot of gay friends even though I am married and always have. Did you know that gays have the same idiosynchrosies as straight people? For example, they get jealous once in a while; they have unique perspectives in various areas of realtiy; they have emotions; they have principles; and so forth?

With Allah being a Commander In Peace, you would wonder why anyone who claims to believe in Allah would be so violent toward homosexuals. Those who actively judge the sins of the homosexual are also guilty of impersonating the true Judge. The latter sin is right there with the one sin that is unforgivable if you die having not repented of it - making partners with Allah.

I like you, Dawn. Your posts are so right!

Nono

Salaam to All!

1- Prophet Lut showed his disgust on the 'action' and not on it's excess.

2- He warned them of Allah's dislike for a man approaching a man.( ...obviously a woman approaching a woman, too)

3- Homosexuality is 'Not Natural' (and biologically un-reasonable) hence it is a social crime (injustice) called sin.

4- Rule is ,,Hate the sin...not the sinner!

5- Sinner ia a sick person (with social disease) and must be 'helped'/'trained'/'punished' (somehow) not killed

6- Homosexuality is 'accepted' in Western societies because they are 'trained' without sense of 'shame' and ''respect' for their bodies since their childhood.

(..all wise parents would prefer strive to nip the evil in the bud..it they want to eradicate this social disease..if they are sure that their God dis-approved it) (addition)

In Eastern traditionally Eastern socities, no one is appreciated to change clothes before anyone.(..taking bath together is NOT practised)
Western media has changed the values throughout the world..by their propaganda .it doesn't mean every right they give to wrong-doers is 'right'!

You people have turned these hidden sins into world afflictions..(believe it or not!)

7- NK it shows obviously that you are still not convinced...because the issue is very special for you, personally..(and not a relgious matter) and perheps does not require 'common-sense'

(Now I expect insult from both of you again....and I don't care...at all!)

Here is my rendering of the verse that is so often used by Muslims to justify their hatred and violent behavior toward homosexuals. If my translation is in error, please feel free to correct me with facts about the corrections.

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7:80 (1) When Lot said to his people, (2) “You bring to each other (2a) the excess (wastefulness, abomination, immorality) that never occurred therein to you (2b) among anyone from securlar world.” [Interpretation: (2) “You commit excesses (wastefulness, abominations, immorality) with each other that have never occurred among anyone before you from the secular world…”] 7:81 (1) “Indeed, you truly (1a) give the men to each other (1b) preference after the women, [Interpretation: (1) You really (1b) prefer (1a) the men with men (1b) rather than with the women.] (2) HOWEVER, you are extreme (wasteful, excessive, immoral) people.” 7:82 Replies of his people, however, was to have them (Lot and his family) leave the village. “They are a purified (pure, clean, remote) people.” (*)

وَلُوطًا إِذۡ قَالَ لِقَوۡمِهِۦۤ أَتَأۡتُونَ ٱلۡفَـٰحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِہَا مِنۡ أَحَدٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ (٨٠) إِنَّڪُمۡ لَتَأۡتُونَ ٱلرِّجَالَ شَہۡوَةً۬ مِّن دُونِ ٱلنِّسَآءِ‌ۚ بَلۡ أَنتُمۡ قَوۡمٌ۬ مُّسۡرِفُونَ (٨١) وَمَا ڪَانَ جَوَابَ قَوۡمِهِۦۤ إِلَّآ أَن قَالُوٓاْ أَخۡرِجُوهُم مِّن قَرۡيَتِڪُمۡ‌ۖ إِنَّهُمۡ أُنَاسٌ۬ يَتَطَهَّرُونَ (٨٢)

80 (1) Wa Lūţāan ‘iṭ qāla li-qawmi-hi (2) ‘ata’tūna [√atw yatafā’alūna,: yataaātawūna → yata’ātūna → أتأتو ‘ata’tūna, 2nd, m., pl., impf. act., Stem VI] (2a) al-fāḥişata mā sabaqa-kum bi-hā (2b) min 'aḥadin mina l-‘ālamīna 81 (1) 'inna-kum la (1a) ta'tūna [see verse 80] r-rijāla (1b) şahwatan [√şhw,fa’latan, şahwah n.f. (pl. şahawat)] Min Dūni An-Nisā' (2) Bal 'Antum Qawmun Musrifūna. 82 Wa Mā Kāna Jawāba [√jwb fa’āla] Qawmi-hi 'Illā 'An Qālū 'Axrijū-hum [√xrj, af’ilu, Stem IV] Min Qaryatikum 'Inna-hum 'Unāsun [√nws ‘ufa’lun, nas (pl. of insan), Perfective Passive n., Stem 04] Yataţahharūn [√ţhr yatafa’’alūn, Impf. Act., Stem V]
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This translation is very clear on the subject of homosexuality, but let’s analyze this straight from the Qur‘ān. Sure, you can put all the other English translations together to come up with your own conclusions, but look at the Qur'an for what it says.

Grammatically speaking, regardless of opinion of whether homosexuality is natural or not, the only thing I'm concerned with is the claim that this verse is used to justify hatred or to support opinions only one way regarding homosexuality. Granted, homosexuality MAY be unnatural... Then again, it may come natural to others... My point is that the Qur'an does not provide a justified aversion to homosexuality as it does "wasteful behavior," excess, overdoing something, and so on. This is often translated as abomination, but the actual meaning of "(2a) al-fāḥişata mā sabaqa-kum bi-hā" in verse 7:80 is "(2a) the excess (wastefulness, abomination, immorality) that never occurred therein to you."

Where the Qur'an says in 7:81, "(1) 'inna-kum la (1a) ta'tūna [see verse 80] r-rijāla (1b) şahwatan [√şhw,fa’latan, şahwah n.f. (pl. şahawat)] Min Dūni An-Nisā' it actually means "(1) “Indeed, you truly (1a) give the men to each other (1b) preference after the women, [Interpretation: (1) You really (1b) prefer (1a) the men with men (1b) rather than with the women.]" Because of the next sentence, there is a "however" after this. In other words, yes, you truly commit a certain act; HOWEVER... The next sentence reads, "(2) Bal 'Antum Qawmun Musrifūna" which means "HOWEVER, you are extreme (wasteful, excessive, immoral) people.” In other words, the HOWEVER in this sentence, the "bal" in this court, is pointing out that the real matter is not the act itself, but the fact that they are a people who are Musrifūna, extreme (wasteful, excessive, immoral). They go beyond limits. That is the point here because of the "bal," the whole point of the "bal" part of this verse.

If we were to take out the "bal" in verse 81(2), Sentence 81(1) would simply be a statement of history with no moral lesson to it, so putting these verses in context, grammatically, regardless of our opinion of what is natural or not, the Qur'an does not support any argument against homosexuality EXCEPT in the context of sexual activities
outside of marriage, which is not a homosexual issue anymore than it is a heterosexual issue.

The reason I make this argument is because the Qur'an is not something you can put your own spin on if that is not what it says. The Qur'an is written intentionally, with purpose, in a demeanor of perfection I have never read in the English language, and it flows with beauty that is often hard for dirty people to experience.

That's why when it comes to Islamic doctrine, I don't rely on any English translations completely, although they are good for comparing with the Arabic which is how I use them once in a while. In this case, is a sexual preference over another a moral consideration? Is it something that the Qur'an makes a stand for or against? Well, it does tell us to not follow the fancies of the rejectors of Allah's signs, but does an attraction to one gender or the other determine whether you are a believer in the Qur'an or not? At this point, I have not found any evidence from the Qur'an, just the verse above that is taken out of context in most English translations or that are actually unintentionally misinterpreted.

Nono

To one who calls himself a Quranic Muslim.
..........................................

Q: What was the religion of Prophet Lut?


To one who is reluctant to accept that Quran is also a revelation of God.
..................................................
Q: Why did God start this world with a Man and His Wife?

To the rest of the Readers:

I 'wash my hands' 'off' the responsiblity of convincing/arguing with a person who is teaching/preaching/imposing HIS OPINION in the name of GRAMMER...an trying to PLAY GAMES with the TRUE MEANINGS OF THE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM.

Wassalaam

RE: Post that began as follows.

To one who calls himself a Quranic Muslim.
..........................................

Correct, Lot was not interested in homosexual acts. That's clear, but outside the Qur'an, I am in no position to make an Islamic statement if it is not supported by the Qur'an. My opinions do not matter. What the Qur'an reads, how it was intentionally written, and the importance of the visuals given, and so on, do matter. The visual about homosexuality where it is referenced to regarding Prophet Lot has everything to do with the "HOWEVER" part of the verse. The "HOWEVER" part of the verse points out that the problem was waste, excess, overdoing things, crossing boudaries. Lot was straight; these gay men were trying to impose themselves on Lot. I referenced 2:256 in a recent post. The two are related in that both regard compulsion of one's standards upon another person.

I stick by conclusion until I find a better, more convincing argument than mine. Because Islam is a religion of peace and the Qur'an proves it, how can I state or even remotely believe that homosexual love is against the will of Allah? If I want to use science, logic and reasoning, or any other basis for supporting or opposing homosexuality, I probably could make a contrary argument, but the question remains, "What is the gay populatiion in Islam?" There is no answer because Islam does not turn Judgment Day over to anyone, including Muslims, but many of my fellow Muslims are making claims about Islam that are obviously false doctrine, a form of tagut and a heinous sin in the Qur'an. You may wash your hands of the grammatics that I base my argument on in this debate, but then you also deny the intentions of Allah in His Holy Narrations.

You cannot absolve yourself from what was revealed to mankind through the Qur'an and concommitantly and honestly claim to be a submitter to Allah; otherwise, you are not submitting through lying. That's too paradoxical. They do not work together. Either you submit - which is not for anyone else to determine but you - or you don't. A Muslim submits. One who rejects the message of Allah does not submit. It's up to you to determine which class of people you belong, but as I stated, until you can substantiate a truer and better argument than I have seen so far, I can only stand by my conclusion. As you can see, I am still open to more convincing arguments.

Nono

Firstly I need to reiterate that Orthodox Islamic scholars still view Homosexuality and Sodomy as one and the same thing. When Muslims think homosexuality, they think sodomy. So often, Ahaadith and Quranic Aayaat dealing with sodomy will be quoted to support the argument against Homosexuality.

Homosexuality is a state of being and is not necessarily acted out sexually and publicly by every homosexual in an explicit form such as sodomy. So the Islamic viewpoint in terms of Usul-ul-Fiqh and Shariah, on this case is, that if the person has an evil thought (assuming now for a minute that homosexuality is evil), will not be punished until those evil thoughts are put into action.

So there is no basis in Islam for punishing or condemning a person who admits he/she is homosexual. It is when the act of sodomy is committed, with witnesses proving that the actual penetration has taken place (according to some Ullema), then a punishment according to the degree of indecency should be meted out to the parties involved. Also when a homosexual is admitting without witnesses that he was guilty of sodomy, he can also be punished.

One other important fact we need to take cognizance of is that not every heterosexual is a rapist, and not every rapist is a heterosexual. Similarly not every homosexual is a sodomite, and not every sodomite or child molester, is a homosexual.

There is also the other misconception that the punishment for sodomy is more severe in Islam than the punishment for illicit sex committed by heterosexuals.

The Quran says regarding Zina:

"Az-zaniyatu waz zani fajlidu kulla waahidim minhuma mi'ata jalda, wa laa ta'gudkum bihima ra'fatun fee deenillahi in kuntum tu'minuna billahi wal joumil aaghir wal yash-hadu adhaabahuma taa'ifatum minal mu'mineen." Surah 24:2

If two people of opposite sex are guilty of illicit sex, they should both be flogged with 100 stripes and you should not be moved by compassion regarding them, if you call yourself a true believer… and the actual punishment should be executed publicly.


On indecency of a homosexual nature Allah says:

Wal laati ya'teenal faaghishata min nisaa-ikum fastash-hidu alayhinna arba'ata minkum. Fa'in shahidu fa'amsikoo hunna fil buyoot gattaa yatawaffaa hunnal mout au yaj'allillahu lahunna sabeelaa.
Wallathaani ya'tiyaanihaa minkum fa'dhoo humaa fa'in taaba wa oslaha fa'ridhu 'anhumaa . Innallaha kaana tawwaabar raheemaa.

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, you must produce four reliable witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, then they should be confine to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

If two men are guilty of lewdness, both of them should be offended, insulted or injured (not punished as the Yusuf Ali translation has it). (Here the kind of reprimand is not defined.) If they repent and amend, leave them alone, for Allah is oft returning, Most Merciful." Quran 4:15&16


So from these Aayaat it is clear that the punishment for Zina is more severe and defined, than the punishment for sodomy, or homosexual public indecency.


And I stress I am in no way supporting any form of indecency be it of a hetero- or homosexual nature. I am merely pointing this out to show how prejudiced we as Muslims have become of homosexuals, whom we still perceive to be sodomites and how in our bias treatment of homosexuals we have even overlooked Quranic injunctions.

People are confused about their sexual orientation quite often. I would not be doing so much counseling if they weren't. There are a number of factors to be considered here.

As we know, a minority group is always prejudiced and marginalized by a majority group, in almost every situation. And because we're dealing with a sensitive and very personal issue such as sexuality, homosexuals feel it deeply. This creates a lot of instabilities for most homosexuals.

And as if that is not enough, we still have on the other hand, the heterosexual society's insistence that homosexuals need to conform and be reverted to heterosexuality as if they've been all along naturally heterosexual.

Religion also plays a major role in the perception of the self. So if there is the belief that homosexuals are cursed by Allah and condemned to hell, you can well imagine the negative impact this has on the minds homosexual and how dejected they would feel in the assessment of themselves.

I also believe that the insecurities around homosexuals make them more prone to promiscuity, than those homosexuals who've made peace with themselves and their Creator. This acquired promiscuous nature is accompanied with a lot of guilt, self-resentment and disillusionment with love and life.

So, all these factors play a negative and an opposing role in the homosexual's search for true love, understanding and the search for himself.

I would say that the true homosexual is the one who has gone through the processes of discovering his true sexuality, has dealt with the prejudices of society and has made peace with himself and his creator.And this path to me is spiritual and it reminds me of the saying of Nabi Muhammad (s) when he said:

"Man arafa nafsahu, arafa rabbah"

"He who has discovered himself, discovered his creator."

And this is pretty much what my counseling and the support groupsessions are all about, to help the homosexual to find his true self and the purpose for which he was created, in order that he may become more Allah-conscious.

There are homosexuals though that are not truly gay, like the pathological case and as I said previously, this type of homosexual can be helped, not necessarily to become heterosexual, but helped to find his true sexuality, whatever it may be for him.
.
As I mentioned previously, homosexuality is a state of being. It does not necessarily flow from it that the person is sexually active. I also mentioned that the act of sodomy (witnessed by four) or willful admittance to the act, is the punishable thing, and not being homosexual. When a sexual act happens in privacy ie: A man having anal sex with his wife, promiscuity amongst heterosexuals or homosexuals, then these matters cannot be judged by a human court of law, simply because there is no evidence. Such a matter is between them and their Creator and does not make the parties involved non-Muslim.

So I am very much of a Muslim when I adhere to the five pillars of Islam and guard against sexual indecency. There are those Muslims who deliberately do not fast, or perform Salaah, thus destroying the very basis of their faith, but they are comfortably accepted as Muslims.

Yet the Nabi (s) said:
" Man taraka salaatahu faqad kafara"
"He who has left his Salaah has become kafir."

I think we need to get our own priorities straight before we go off condemning others, especially those that are different from us.

Allah also says in the Quran:

"La tahkumu wa laa tuhkam"
"Do not judge and you will not be judged."

I was differentiating between the homosexual relationship based on love and mutual respect vs. a homosexual sexual encounter based on lust, which can include sodomy/pederasty/bestiality and male-to-male promiscuity.

Love, affection, care, muhabbah, mawaddah or whatever you wish to call it; these are all human emotions which has no gender, or is not confined to a specific sexuality, so anybody can show love and affection to anybody and everybody else, if the meaning of love is fully understood.

In Islamic countries the holding of hands and hugging of men is quite an acceptable form of expressing love to the same sex. The Nabi (s) use to sleep on the lap of Abu Bakr (r.a). The mystical poet Rumi had a deep loving relationship with Shams and when Shams eventually departed, he poured his heart out in poetry expressing his undying love for Shams.

The examples of same sex love is endless in the Islamic world; and I am not for one minute suggesting that all these are of a homosexual nature. I'm simply asking the question. Why is it so horrific and frowned upon when homosexuals display this kind of affection, yet not knowing whether those people are involved sexually or not? Are they not worthy of expressing their love to the same sex?

Another example of how prejudice our Muslims are, is the question of Zina. It has become quite an excepted thing in our society and it is even "rectified" by our Thursday night must marriages. Yet the Quran orders them to be flogged with 100 stripes without compassion for them, and the punishment should even be carried out in public. But when a homosexual only says: "I am attracted to my same-sex, without acting upon it", the whole city condemns him.

Some man said to me a few days after my article was published in The Argus: "Yes, I understand your point, but why let the whole world know about the fact that you are attracted to the same sex." I didn't answer him. A few lines down his rhetoric. He recons: "Gees, in the fast the only thing on my mind is women", and he was quite comfortable in saying this.

So it seems to be okay for the heterosexual to tell the world about his sexual fantasies, but the homosexual must shut up. So attempts are even made to control the thoughts of a homosexual. If this is not prejudice, then I swear the pope is Jewish.

As regards to a platonic homosexual relationship, I have no problem with that. I haven't found enough evidence in Islam to prohibit such a relationship, based on love and friendship. So I believe that a homosexual relationship, if any, should stay platonic as far as society can see into your life. Whatever happens beyond that, is entirely a matter between the parties involved and their Creator.