YUSUFALI: And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult(religion) of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!
PICKTHAL: And strive for Allah with the endeavour which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor-due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!
SHAKIR: And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!
........................................

1-He has 'Chosen' you,
2- and has imposed no difficulties on you in 'Religion';
3- it is the 'Religion' of your father 'Abraham'.
4- It is He Who has named you 'Muslims', both 'before' and in this (Revelation);

I guess you missed that part of the bible that says Issac would take presedence over Ismael. Those decendents of abraham are of the true faith. All who put their trust in jesus are abrahams seed. It was jesus who was raised from the dead not Mohamed. It was Jesus who bled not mohamed. It is Jesus who justifies not mohomed. It is Jesus who is the divine one not mohamed. It was Jesus who is God in the flesh not mohomed.
There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved, the name Christ Jesus.
His Disciple

Bible: plz read this
bibleinfo.com/en/topics/islam

Brother we Muslim do not make any distinction amongst messengers of God.

5:46] And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God

Jesus died just like many other disciples of God according to Quran , having migrated to remote hills.

According to Quran 6:164
Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear of burdens can bear the burden of another.

Here is my translation of 22:78 with the transliteration for those who do not read Arabic but want to see the Arabic break down:

22:78 (1) Strivings in Allāh is truth of His strivings. (2) He selected you, (3) and He did not produce upon you (3b) a religion of your forefather Abraham (3a) in the Standard of Doubts. (4) He named you the submitters from before and in this (4a) in order for the Messenger to be a witness over you (4b) and for you to be witnesses to the humans. (5) Therefore, establish the (obligatory) prayer (6) and give the alms. (7) Defend by Allāh. (8) He is your friend (protector, guardian) - (9) a delightful friend (10) and the Delightful, Infinite Helper. (*)

8. (1) Wa jāhidū [√jhd fā’ilū, 2nd, nom., act. pcple. , m., pl., Stem III] fī (A)llāhi ḥaqqa jihādi-hi (2) huwa ijtabā-kum [√jby ifta’ala: , 3rd, m., sing., perf. act., Stem VIII] (3) wa mā ja’ala ‘alay-kum (3a) fīd-dīni min ḥarajin (3b) millata abī-kum ibrāhīma (4) huwa sammā-kumu [√smw fa’’ala, 3rd, m., sing., perf. act., Stem II] l-muslimīna min qablu wafī hāṭā (4a) li-yakūna r-rasūlu şahīdan ‘alay-kum (4b) wa takūnū şuhadāa ‘alā n-nāsi (5) fa aqīmū ṣ-ṣalāta (6) wa ātū z-zakāta (7) wa (i)’taṣimū [√’ṣm if’ta’ilū, ] billāhi (8) huwa mawlā-kum [√wly] (9) fa ni’ma l-mawlā (10) wa ni’ma n-naṣīru

1 - Yes, (2) "He selected you." (2) huwa ijtabā-kum [√jby ifta’ala: , 3rd, m., sing., perf. act., Stem VIII]
2 & 3 - No, (3) and He did not produce a religion of your forefather Abraham upon you in the Standard of Doubts. (3) wa mā ja’ala ‘alay-kum fīd-dīni min ḥarajin millata abī-kum ibrāhīma
4 - Yes, but in context, (4) He named you the submitters from before and in this (4a) in order for the Messenger to be a witness over you (4b) and for you to be witnesses to the humans.

You missed several points, MVastano.

1) The Bible has its origins from bits and pieces of Sumerian and Chaldean texts as well as other ancient writings much older than the Bible itself.

2) The Sumerian and Chaldean texts are in agreement with the Qur'an regarding Isaac versus Ishmael.

3)Jesus taught from the Torah as a strict observer of the Torah, so what Christianity claims about their mythical Jesus is in conflict with truth. Jesus did not start a new religion ascribing the Abrahamic covenant to his followers. He did start a movement that became another sect of Judaism. That means that if you were to follow Jesus you need to become a Jew, not a Christologist.

4) The Qur'an supports the Torah in its original form unlike Christianity which preaches Old Testament but practices the opposite, rather the New Testament.

5) Jesus reiterated, preached, and practiced the Ten Commandments, the first being: "2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me." - Ex 20:2-3 (KJV) The word "before" comes from the Hebrew פָּנִים‎ (pânîym). This word does not only mean "before," but it also means "in front of, in partnership with, beside," and so on. That means that Jesus could not possibly have shared deification with God.

6) The Christians base their religion on the Abrahamic covenant of the Old Testament falsely and based on the atonement of Jesus for the sins of all mankind, but their Old Testament, the Pentateurch being the first part of it, says: "16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. 17 Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge: 18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the Lord thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing."
Deut 24:16-18 (KJV) Jesus was a strict Torah observer, so he could not possibly claim to atone for anyone's sins.

7) Because Islam supports the Torah that Jesus preached from, all who become submitters (Muslims) to the God of Israel (El in Hebrew, Allah in Arabic), call upon the name of Allah without attributing deification to idols, prophets, messengers, etc. By claiming that man is saved by the blood of the Lamb of God is a blasphemy according to the Christian Scriptures. Man is redeemed by El/Allah and El/Allah alone.

8) Muslims (those who submit to Allah) do not violate the first commandment as those who worship Jesus because the day will come as mentioned in Matthew: "21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Matt 7:21-27 (KJV). Christians are among those whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you" because Christianity is a false religion. It's just a terrorist cult.

I can go on with volumes of points, but for brevity's sake, I have to say that if you believe what you posted, then you are a false prophet and a false disciple of Jesus.

Nkingston, Why don't we narrow the idea down to the divinity issue. Lets talk about Jesus as the new testament describes him. How do you account for the following verses:
John 17:5 Jesus has same glory as the father before the world was created
1 Corinthians 2:8 Jesus called the Lord of Glory (OT reference to God Himself)
Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
John1:1 In the beginning was the word...
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[b] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

These references are irrefutable to Christ's divine nature.
Mvastano

Before you even go there, quoting your Scriptures, you need to account for their authority. We don't know who wrote John. 1 Corinthian was indeed written by Paul, but Paul acted in conflict with the Jerusalem Administration where the Jesus Movement actually took place and was in charge of the Jesus Movement. As for 1 Timothy and Hebrews, I can see that you are not aware that those are among the books of the New Testament that have been proven to be forgeries, so your references are baseless and not qualifications to be counted as proof of anything... at this point.

Before proclaiming something as incredible as the Divinity of Jesus, why don't you learn a little history and how to do some fact finding first because as it stands you present nothing more than your own ignorance about Jesus himself.

NKingston, Please give me the Following:
1> Two Scholarly sources you claim to have for your reasons that these books of the new testament are forgeries.
2> Was Jesus is a prophet according to the Koran
3> Was Jesus crucified?
4> Did he die as a result of the crucifixtion?
5> Did he rise from the dead and leave an empty tomb?
MVastano

As-salaamu alay-kum, brother.

No problem.

1> Two Scholarly sources you claim to have for your reasons that these books of the new testament are forgeries.
Answer: There are many resources I can guide you to, but a few that stick in my mind are the following:
a.) Bart Ehrman, especially in his book "After the New Testament," which I just finished reading several months ago. However, all of his books are highly recommended by me because they are well documented, the bibliographies are reliable and not just anti-New Testament garbage which I find deplorable, his presentation in each book is presented in a way that the average layman can understand, and most of all he presents his case in a way that goes beyond logic and reasoning and in a way that once you have read his books you can do your own research to conclude the same thing.
b.) Bruce Metzger, "Literary Forgeries and Canonical Pseudepigrapha," Journal of Biblical Literature 91. Metzger is well known in the New Testament community. He is known for both good and bad because of his brutal yet evidence-based honesty. He did many commentaries on different versions of the New Testament.
c.) Madalyn O'Hair was very popular when I was a child, growing up. She was an American atheist activist, and founder of the organization American Atheists and its president from 1963 to 1986. Her son, Jon Garth Murray, was the president of the organization from 1986 to 1995, with her remaining de facto president during these nine years. She is best known for the Murray v. Curlett lawsuit, which led to a landmark Supreme Court ruling ending government sponsored prayer in American public schools. O'Hair later founded American Atheists and became so controversial that in 1964 Life magazine referred to her as "the most hated woman in America." In 1995 she was murdered, along with her son and granddaughter, by David Roland Waters.
d.) One of my favorite books of all time to read as regards Jesus and the New Testament was written by Ahmad Deedat. You can find his book online at http://www.jamaat.net/crux/crucifixion.html.

2> Was Jesus is a prophet according to the Koran
Answer: Yes, one cannot rightfully claim to be a Muslim without accepting this as fact.

3> Was Jesus crucified?
Answer: No, the evidence that currently exists only proves that it was a farce.

4> Did he die as a result of the crucifixtion?
Answer: No, the evidence that currently exist only proves that a man named Simon took his place and that he did not die on the cross either, but according to Roman records Gesta who was Simon's left and Demas who was on Simon's right did die.

5> Did he rise from the dead and leave an empty tomb?
Answer: No. In addition to the website that follows, there are many more communities in surrounding areas that confirm the truth that has been documented here. http://www.tombofjesus.com/

Hope these answer your questions.

Wa laykum salaamu.

NKingston,The popular perception of the Bible as a divinely perfect book receives scant support from Ehrman, who sees in Holy Writ ample evidence of human fallibility and ecclesiastical politics. Though himself schooled in evangelical literalism, Ehrman has come to regard his earlier faith in the inerrant inspiration of the Bible as misguided… Ehrman is not a opinion leader in this as many evangelical scholars would disagree with him. But, putting this aside Ehrman is correct in what he is saying about the texts as being imperfect. However, It was never the contention from the beginning of Christian history to subscribe to literal inerrancy as if the bible must be perfect in its texts as without error. The early church fathers did not believe in the bible in this way. Richard Swinburne; Noted Scholar & Professor of religion at Oxford University in England he expresses it in this way: "Christianity as revelation was that which is taught by Jesus Christ in his message. This message was propagated by the church and finally endorsed during the 4th century with qualifications. Thomas Aquinas made the point that the bible was written for ignorant people and therefore expressed missing or mistaken history. So also all the early church fathers and theologians made the point that the bible should not be taken literally. The bible is rather to be interpreted through creeds like the Nicene Creed which was endorsed by the church council during the 4th century. Taken literally the Christian religion is the church ( which is forgotten by modern protestants) and its central teaching as found in the creeds and the bible in light of the creeds. These creeds were needed to combat heresy. For this cause it is always the case that doctrines of the church have to be worked out beginning with the early church fathers and theologians like Augustine and down thru Thomas Aquinas , Martin Luther, John Calvin, Edwards, Wesley and so on into our own day."
To the extent that many Christians are calling for the veracity of the texts in its inerrancy is really without historical warrant! Again, it is the foundational message of Christ that is the basis for our faith. One cannot be warranted to lift the biblical texts and create a dualism alongside the Divinity as if they are somehow transcendent. They were written by finite human beings who obviously make mistakes. This can be seen in textual errors. Does this mean that the message of Christ is now somehow infected with error as to make the revelation that God brought about nil and without effect. I very much doubt that you would find very many Christians saying that. They will always fall back on the message of Christ for their personal faith. Let me illustrate an example: Think of my personal faith as composed in the form of a web. At the center of the web is my belief in Jesus and his message. Father out from the center of the web I may trust that the bible is a collection of inspired documents. Still father out into the outer edges of the web I may believe that the documents are without error and the father out I get from the center of my core belief the greater is the danger of making my faith untenable and illogical. You can see what has happened over the centuries as the fear of heresy drives people to develope apologetics that are without warrant. Now with this in mind you can understand human nature as it will try to provide something that was never really intended by the original authors of the new testament writings. However, in spite of the problems with inconsistencies in the texts one can still find remarkable agreement throughout the New testament in that the simple message that Jesus taught is expressed in similarity. You see I am looking at the entire new testament as being in agreement in the teaching as can be found in the gospels. Let me be clear! You will not find anything in any part of the new testament that differs doctrinally in what Jesus taught in the gospels. Therefore the message of Christ as portrayed in the gospels is really what god intended to reveal to humanity. So if the issue of forgery depends on the exactness of perfect documents then yes you have a case. But I am sure that this is a highly controversial and personal matter of faith. You now may disagree with me on this but that is another discussion that we can take up if you wish.
Now we come to the matter of fact as you stated that Jesus was a prophet of God according to the Koran. I guess you would believe that he was therefore sent by god for an expressive purpose. I believe then this purpose must be contained in his message as explained in his teachings in the gospels. My question to you is this> If he was sent by god and he failed to provide the salvation he proclaimed by not dying and rising from the dead then what happened? Did god make a mistake? As you can see if it was all a hoax then many people are going to hell because Christ did in fact fail to provide us with salvation and the needed resurrection proclaimed in his message. Now I am sure that I can provide you with evidence that may or may not convince you of the historical accuracy and witness by citing different sources within and outside the new testament. However, do I have to? It matters little on anyone’s testimony about Jesus if in fact god did send him! God said he was his son and prophet so we have it on good grounds that he in fact is don’t we? You see at the end of the day you must be concerned about what god said about Jesus not what man says. Jesus said in response to the Pharisee about his claims to being the Christ>John 5:31 Is Jesus Testimony valid or invalid? Jesus is not saying His witness of Himself is untrue. ... I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me. ... So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the one I claim to be] ... And this is confirmed in BOTH texts, John 5 and John 8:14.
Later, MVastano

As-salaamu alay-kum, brother.

Once again, my brother, you fail to make your own case. Man atones for his own sins, not Jesus. I pointed that out from the Jewish Bible that is represented by Christians as The Old Testament. Moses was the Savior of the Jews when he freed them from bondage in Egypt. That did not make Moses the Savior of the world too, did it? Like wise, Jesus was the reason the Jews were eventually free from the rule of the Romans. That is the type of Savior the Jews were anticipating, so how is it that this mythical Jesus was able to make it into history as the myth that he is now presented as?

You present the most ignoble hoax of all times being the death and resurrection of Jesus. You are right, and we agree that if such is a hoax, which I concur it to be, it indeed is most ignoble hoax in all time history. However, you present your case on Works that were anonymous and presented to specific audiences, and you use them to prove your case as Jesus having said whatever after I have presented my case that they were not viable to use as Scripture based on the given facts, not opinions. We don't know who the author of the Gospel of John is, so how can we accept it as fact that what he says Jesus said was indeed said by Jesus at all? That's a weak case, my brother.

If you compare the authenticated letters of Paul with the Book of Acts, we find the New Testament disputing facts about the Acts of Paul, but yet you analyze the New Testament as a whole focussing on Jesus' message. If this be the case, how is it that Christianity, rather Christologists, has turned Jesus into a god like Mithras and Dionyseus and turned Mother Mary into a virgin saint like Isis?

Peace out, brother.

Nono

NKingston, You need to tell me what it means to you personally if Jesus is in fact god’s prophet. Did god send Jesus? If he did then how are we to know this outside of the gospel accounts? How can you trample under your feet the message that god has provided through Christ. You call Christ god’s prophet and then you call him a mythical figure! You are blaspheming god! You are denying the message of Christ! In one breath you say he is god’s prophet and then in the next breath you deny him and his message! Are you kidding me! You are in fact calling god a liar saying that Christ and his message is a hoax. You are double minded. Did god send Christ! If so then it follows everything he said must be true. I think you are hiding behind you ideology trying to have it both ways. You are stuck with what the Koran says about Christ and your heart is in turmoil about this. So what do you do? You verbally confirm the Koran’s truth that Christ is god’s prophet and then you discredit the very prophet the Koran says Jesus is by attacking the central message of the gospel. Your contradicting yourself! This is utter nonsense!
MVastano

Question: You need to tell me what it means to you personally if Jesus is in fact god’s prophet. Did god send Jesus?
Answer: Yes.

Question: If he did then how are we to know this outside of the gospel accounts?
Answer: We can't know anything about Jesus, except what we know from Roman records. As for the gospel accounts, they cannot be true of a prophet or messenger of God. That much, we know from the Christian Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible.

Question: How can you trample under your feet the message that god has provided through Christ?
Answer: I don't trample on the message of Christ. I believe in the Qur'an, and the Qur'an requires that we believe that Jesus is a Messenger of Allah, and therefore what he claims, said, and did will be in direct alignment to his calling as such.

Claim: You call Christ god’s prophet and then you call him a mythical figure! You are blaspheming god! You are denying the message of Christ! In one breath you say he is god’s prophet and then in the next breath you deny him and his message! Are you kidding me! You are in fact calling god a liar saying that Christ and his message is a hoax. You are double minded.
Response: Actually, I am not double-minded at all. If the anonymous texts called gospels are proven to be inaccurate, then the facts behind them at least stand. Jesus as a Messenger, as a Prophet, of God, he is in line with his calling. The double-mindedness that you speak of does stand but not as it applies to me. It applies to those who accept both the Old and New Testament as being from the same God. If you want to know who the blasphemer is, check your facts. Why call the kettle white if its black? In spiritual matters, that's what is referred to as blasphemy. If you put the facts in line, you'll discover that the Jesus you currently believe in cannot be anything but a Roman god attribute to a man who taught contrary.

Claim: Did god send Christ! If so then it follows everything he said must be true.
Response: Correct! On the other hand, God sent Christ, then it follows that he would not claim things about himself that are contrary to God's laws, right? If this is the case, how can you accept the mythical Jesus and the historical Jesus as being one and the same. There were many false Christs around in and after Jesus' days. Maybe you should check into your history as well as compare your Old Testament with your New Testament. I highly recommend it. Your eyes will open to an all new world, and the brainwashing that you are accustomed to will be as clear as day.

Claim and Question: I think you are hiding behind your ideology trying to have it both ways. You are stuck with what the Koran says about Christ and your heart is in turmoil about this. So what do you do?
Response and Answer: Evidence demands a verdict, so the shoe is on the other foot. You are trying to have it both ways, while my presentations so far only prove that there is only one true and historical Jesus. That Jesus is in line with history and the Qur'an both. So if you believe in Jesus and you have investigated for yourself the evidence - historical, Scriptural (including the Qur'an on my part), archeological, and other supporting evidence that exists - how do you plea? Guilty or not guilty? Don't answer that; you don't answer to me there... unless you deny that there is a Judgment Day.

Claim: You verbally confirm the Koran’s truth that Christ is god’s prophet and then you discredit the very prophet the Koran says Jesus is by attacking the central message of the gospel. Your contradicting yourself! This is utter nonsense!
Response: Check your facts again. Once again, the shoe is on the other foot. Read Matthew 23 to understand from your own Scriptures where I'm coming from.

Advice: Study your Old and New Testaments "primarily." Compare what you find with the history of Jesus beginning with the second century B.C. to your Christology today. You'll discover that you are the one who is in error, and if I am the one in error, I am open to correction. I look forward to your correcting me with genuine facts.

Nono

NONO,
You are now moving into the area of false accusations. You are in fact stating something you cannot know. You call the Christ as represented in the historical documents of the new testament forgeries. How do you know that they are forgeries? What original documents do you possess with what we have from manuscript transmission to show that these are forgeries? What so called “original documents” do you possess?. There aren’t any! But this is a mute point anyway. You still don’t seem to understand what I have been trying to tell you. You seem to think that I need an original document to verify the truth of Christ. I told you it is preserved in the message of Christ. This original message was not in complete written form until later time. People witnessed the truth by word of mouth as they do today in the world just like they did in the first century. Even today people preach the gospel in parts of the world where people are just as illiterate as most people were in the first century. Its not the text that’s important when we preach. It is the message we preach and that is Christ crucified! No one is trying to defraud anybody with this message? The original disciples and apostles gave their very lives to preach it. Why would anyone in his right mind give his life for something if he didn’t believe it to be the truth. Don’t even try to tell me that they were deceived. You weren’t there when they were being crucified, CHARLIE! It is God himself who verifies this message to us when we humbly come to him by faith. If it was just a message without supernatural confirmation then it would be useless. This is all I want to say.
To be fair to your concerns I will provide some information on how our modern versions of the bible came to be. It may not be of any interest to you so you can disregard the information below if you wish. It is not meant to prove anything only to give a brief outline of transmisson history and is not exhaustive.
These documents along with the creeds formed by the early church fathers are what gives credence to our modern translations. However, to be fair there are also older documents written by the Church fathers confirming these documents going back as far as 70 AD in THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS (c. A.D. 70) and continuing with others like Eusebius of Caesarea (c 263 – 339?[1]) Often referred to as Father of church history. Additionally an original catechism is perserved>The Didache which is mentioned by Eusebius (c. 324) as the Teachings of the Apostles following the books ..... The earliest suggested dating is 44 or 47. The Didache was rediscovered in a monastery in Constantinople and published in 1883. It is a controversial instructional book, whose date has been much debated. Currently, the Didache, a non-canonical book, is believed to have been written between A.D. 70 and 100. The Didache claims to be the work of the Twelve Apostles. Our present version of the ancient Didache is a reliable guide to help us understand the conduct code of the earliest Christian community
Ancient Manuscripts
Q: Which manuscripts are in general the most reliable?
A: All of the manuscripts have basically the same words, with a difference of only 2.6% (about 3,523 words). However, some Christian scholars energetically debate the differences in this 2.6%, with primarily three different views.
The Alexandrian manuscripts are the earliest and some think the most reliable (except for John 6:53-8:11). Aland et al. the NIV translators, and a majority of scholars today hold to this view. A church father named Origen extensively studied many Bible texts we do not have available today, and his work undoubtedly influenced the Alexandrian manuscript family. Besides many later manuscripts written on common papyri, two early manuscripts, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, were written on expensive vellum (deer hide). These were apparently "official copies"; Constantine ordered to be written just after Christianity was legalized. These go back to about 325-350 A.D.
The Byzantine manuscripts some think are most reliable. In the east, manuscripts being written gradually "standardized", and there are 1,100 manuscripts of the Byzantine Lectionary. This viewpoint is growing among scholars, as the manuscripts typically agree with quotes from John Chrysostom, which takes this tradition back to 407 A.D. For large changes there are least 54-word modifications between the Alexandrian and Byzantine manuscript families and 577 words absent in the Alexandrian and present in the Byzantine. This about 0.5% (631 words). In other words, 20% of all text variations are due to Alexandrian vs. Byzantine issues.
The Textus Receptus (TR), also called the Received Text, some think is the most reliable. In the West, manuscripts being written became more and more standardized. This Latin standard is called "the textus receptus". The King James Version follows the Textus Receptus, except that it adds 1 John 5:7-8. Jay P. Green, Sr. primarily uses the Textus Receptus in his a Greek/Hebrew to English parallel Bible.

Additonal Notes On the divinity of Christ :
Now we will examine the evidence provided us of the Early Church Fathers. In his Dissertation on I Tim. 3:16 Dean Burgon cites no less than 23 Fathers who support the reading “Theos”. A few of these follow:

Ignatius (A.D. 90) writes:
"There is one physician, both fleshly and spiritual; made and not made; God in the flesh" (Ephe. 2:7) and "God himself being made manifest in the form of a man." (Ephe. 4:13).
It is of particular interest to note that Ignatius uses the Greek word for God (theos), and for flesh (sarki) in the first citation and the Greek word for manifest (using the form peanerasas) in the second, as does the Greek text of the KJV in 1 Timothy 3:16.

Hippolytus (A.D. 190) writes:
“A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject,” and “And even as He was preached then, in the same manner also did He come and manifest Himself, being by the Virgin and the Holy Spirit made a new man; for in that He had the heavenly (nature) of the Father, as the Word and the earthly (nature), as taking to Himself the flesh from the old Adam by the medium of the Virgin, He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man (Hippolytus, Against The Heresy Of One Noetus, viii and xvii)
Gregory of Nyssa (A.D. 370) writes:
How is it that he who speaks thus fails to understand that God when manifested in flesh did not admit for the formation of His own body the conditions of human nature, but was born for us a Child by the Holy Ghost and the power of the Highest; (Gregory, Against Eunomius, 2:7)
Gregory of Nyssa is found to quote this place at least 22 times, each time he quotes “Theos” (God).

The ancient versions that attest to “Theos” are, the Georgian Version (6th century), the Harkleian Version (7th century) and the Slavonic Version (9th century). This reading is also authenticated by the following English translations:

Mike

Mike:

Here are some examples of your claims against me that actually are about you. You said on 3/27/2010 the following:

"Nono you say you are open to correction but when confronted with your own authoritaive texts you run hide behind your own blind ignorance."

To prove that your allegation is not only false but truly about you, I am throwing something in your face now that the above quote from you should be about you.

This is from 3/23/2010 that begins as follows.
----
As-salaamu alay-kum, brother Mike:

Claim: You are now moving into the area of false accusations. You are in fact stating something you cannot know. [etc., etc., etc.]

Question: What original documents do you possess with what we have from manuscript transmission to show that these are forgeries? What so called “original documents” do you possess?
Response: Do I need to have any documents at all in my possession when there has been sufficient scholarly research done to prove that they are forgeries?

*** I'm still waiting for an answer! ***



Statement: You weren’t there when they were being crucified, CHARLIE!
Response: Does it matter?

*** I'm still waiting for an answer! ***



Your Presentation begins:
Ancient Manuscripts
Q: Which manuscripts are in general the most reliable?
A: All of the manuscripts have basically the same words, with a difference of only 2.6% (about 3,523 words). However, some Christian scholars energetically debate the differences in this 2.6%, with primarily three different views.
Response: Reliable in regard to what? Where is this going?

*** I'm still waiting for an answer! ***

"Once every hundred years Jesus of Nazareth meets Jesus of the Christian in a garden among the hills of Lebanon.And they talk long;and each time Jesus of Nazareth goes away saying to Jesus of the Christian, " My friend, I fear we shall never, never agree"

by

Khalil Gibran

SAND AND FOAM-A Book Of Aphorisms

"The Collected Works"

Everyman's Library 2007

NONO, Let me say that I will have to reconsider my method with dealing out information with you. Lets consider the documents of the new testment as what they in fact are, historical documents. When verifying historical documents as these how is it you stand outside the mainstream of historians who in fact view them in this way? There is no truth that historians view them as fiction. If you do then you do not know that there are extra biblical sources that corroborate the people and places in these documents. Without trying to prove the documents as anything more than historical documents we are still looking at them as true of historical documents. Now these documents are different from Greco Roman myth stories in that they are providing more than mere imaginary pantheons of gods for childrens bedtime stories. Rather we are encountering a signature from god himself. The foundational event of God becoming a human being and a great light coming and shinning in a world of darkness. Peoples lives were transformed and historians of that era wrote about them. Josephus said “ these Christians are turning the world upside-down! An outside historian writing about real people living at that period of time. The fact of the matter is that Christianity has many historical figures verifying real events of real people not as fiction but as historical fact.. There were many historical accounts of people represented in these documents as first hand witnesses to these events. As a matter of fact the apostles themselves a genuine historical representatives witnessing what happen. They stated in these historical documents that they encountered Christ and of the miracles and healings. In fact from these historical documents we are told that over 500 witnesses saw Christ rise from the earth an enter into heaven. As far as I am concerned this has historical significant not as fiction as you claim but a historical facts in the lives of everyday people who encountered a great truth in the person and work of Jesus.
You say: There have been a lot of people who died as genuine martyrs, but even as we see today, there are many who claim many die as martyrs when in fact they are just criminals who have been prosecuted, even executed, for violating the laws of the land in the name of religion, just for us to read that they were persecuted, or killed, for Jesus' sake. Just because you believe you are saved is no reason to think you are above the laws of the land. As far as the apostles and other disciples of Jesus, many were indeed martyrs for the truth, but many were just fanatics who got themselves killed unnecessarily. Nevertheless, the question of their deaths has nothing to do with the Message of God and the Message of Christianity.
This kind of reasoning is a poor attempt to deny the truth of sincerity in the lives of genuine Christians. It denies nothing about the historical significance. I could just as easily state the same case for what you believe. You are a misguided fanatic who thinks himself above the laws of the land and as such your message has nothing to do with truth. The Koran is not really nothing more than a legend about a fantastic ideology. In fact the Koran is just another in a long line of forgeries. With no verifiable significance from the historical community this document cannot be trusted since there is no way of verifying it. There are no historical accounts from historians or any real witnesses to trust the veracity to this as being anything more than a mythical story invented by another false teacher. And how then can it be trusted. Most likely people tampered with its message over the ages? With no historical veracity is falls by the wayside of dead ends to truth. The real truth that we glean from the Koran is that of a misguided man who was nothing more than a megalomaniac in love with his own self centered hero worship. A legend in his own mind, who raped many children fathering more illegitimate children than a so called holy man would care to be known for. The only appeal to its signature as truth is the claimed that the Koran is somehow equal and eternal with God himself. HA! HA! HA! HA! How are you going to prove this! Oh! Because Mr. Mahomet says so! You don’t really expect anybody who is searching for truth to believe this do you??? To be fair with you I will give you something to chew on:
THE CORÂN
ITS COMPOSITION AND TEACHING;
AND THE TESTIMONY IT BEARS TO THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

BY SIR WILLIAM MUIR, K.C.S.I., LL.D.
PUBLISHED UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE TRACT COMMITTEE.
LONDON: SOCIETY FOR PROMOTING CHRISTIAN KNOWLEDGE,
NORTHUMBERLAND AVENUE, CHARING CROSS, W.C.;
43 QUEEN VICTORIA STREET, B.C.;
BRIGHTON: E35, NORTH STREET.
NEW YORK: E. & J. B. YOUNG & CO.
Contents: Section 3: pages 236- 237
236
The CORÂN

ministry, A.D. 610-632 were the identical Scriptures now in the hands of Jews and Christians. But, for the benefit of the honest and enquiring Mussulman, the following points may be briefly indicated for his further investigation.

There are now extant Manuscripts of an earlier date than the era above-mentioned, and open to the most scrupulous examination of any enquirer. There are Versions of the Old and New Testaments, translated before the period in question. The Septuagint translation of the Old Testament was executed prior to the Christian era. There are still remains of the Octapla of Origen, drawn up four centuries before Mahomet, in which the various versions of the Old Testament were compared in parallel columns. Of the New Testament there are the Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Armenian versions, made long anterior to Mahomet, by a reference to which the Mussulman investigator will be able to satisfy himself that there have been no alterations in the original text since the time of his Prophet.

Lastly, there are quotations from the sacred Scriptures, and innumerable references to them, contained in the Jewish and Christian writers of ages far earlier than Mahomet. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clemens, Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Eusebius, Chrysostom, Gregory, Basil, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, and many others may be with this view readily consulted by any Mahometan, if he will only take the trouble to learn the Greek and Latin tongues. This species of coincident proof is the strongest that can be imagined.

TESTIMONY TO THE HOLY SCRIPTURES
237
It is no reply to this line of argument to say that in the manuscripts of the Scriptures there now exist various readings, discrepancies, and passages asserted by the Mahometans (as those regarding the divine Sonship and the death of Jesus) to be inconsistent with a true Revelation. By examining the ancient Manuscripts, the versions and quotations above referred to, they will find that various readings, supposed discrepancies, and passages affirming the death of Christ and confirming the doctrine of the Trinity, existed, just as they now exist, in the Scriptures current in the time of Mahomet and for centuries before,—in those very Scriptures, namely, of which Mahomet in the Corân so constantly and unconditionally asserts the truth. The true Mussulman has, therefore, no option but to accept, and believe in, those Scriptures just as they stand.

VIII.—BELIEF IN, AND EXAMINATION OF, THE SCRIPTURES INCUMBENT ON ALL MAHOMETANS.

Such being the case, the sincere and honest Mussulman is earnestly invited to examine the subject, and to satisfy himself, as he may easily do, that the Bible of the present day is the Bible of the days of Mahomet. He is called upon to revere and honour that sacred Book, even as his Master so uniformly and so unequivocally professed to honour it. He is called upon to believe in it as the inspired word of God, in order that he may obtain the "reward" (أجورهم ) promised to the faithful believers. Now the shoe is on the other foot. You see friend you have fallen into the illogical reference of the pot calling the kettle black! Truth holds a mirror in the right hand and a snake in the other.
MVastano
P.S. I forgot to add the ending to this discouse. I think you will admit it needs to be read.
238 The CORÂN
He is cautioned against the neglect or disbelief of it, lest he incur the "ignominious punishment (عذاباً مهيناً) which God hath prepared for the unbelievers," for them "that believe in a part and reject a part" of God's word.—Art. CII. He is warned against refusing to acknowledge that "perspicuous Book," which is "a light to lighten mankind, a guide and a direction, an admonition to the pious,—to them that fear the Lord in secret and tremble at the hour of judgment";—that Revelation which is "complete as to whatever is excellent, and an explanation of every matter, and a mercy, that men may believe in the meeting of their Lord"; for if he does thus reject it, according to the verdict of his own Prophet, "verily he hath wandered into a wide and fatal error," قد ضل ضلالاً بعيداً . Above all let him beware of blaspheming (like some of the degenerate Mussulmans of the present day) that holy Book, and of thus sealing his doom as "a transgressing and flagitious Unbeliever."—Art. CXXIV.

What fearful audacity is displayed by some of the modern Mahometans (unworthy disciples in this respect of their Prophet!) who ignorantly and blasphemously speak against "the Book which God hath sent down, "the holy "Forcân," "the Word of God"!

As for ourselves, the People of the Book, it is only in conformity with the express inculcation of the Prophet of Islâm, that we observe, and hold by, both the Law and the Gospel (Art. CXXVII.); and that, in accordance with his challenge, we examine those

TESTIMONY TO THE HOLY SCRIPTURES 239
Scriptures to which he appealed before the people of Arabia as his witness, to see whether or no they bear testimony to his mission. And it is the sacred duty of every Mussulman, in order that he may guard against the possibility of fatal deception, to do the same.

Lastly; all honest Moslems are called on to believe, for they cannot consistently disbelieve, that these Scriptures are the inspired "Word of God" (كلام الله) "that they are a light to lighten Mankind," (نوراً وهدى للناس) "an illumination and admonition to the Pious" (ضياً وذكراً للمتقين); in fine, that they are calculated to lead those that follow their precepts into the way of peace, and make them wise unto salvation. Why, then, will they neglect so precious a source of spiritual benefit as (the Corân itself being judge) exists in the Old and New Testaments, and shut themselves out from their illumination? Let them search the Scriptures diligently, and they will find the whole tenor of those sacred Books to be "that God is in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself";— that Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life"; "This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent."

THE END.

Muslims know and believe in JESUS alaihissalaam..because of QURAN.....

NONO, I forgot to add the last part of the discussion to the my last reply. I am sure you will agree it needs to be read.
238 The CORÂN
He is cautioned against the neglect or disbelief of it, lest he incur the "ignominious punishment (عذاباً مهيناً) which God hath prepared for the unbelievers," for them "that believe in a part and reject a part" of God's word.—Art. CII. He is warned against refusing to acknowledge that "perspicuous Book," which is "a light to lighten mankind, a guide and a direction, an admonition to the pious,—to them that fear the Lord in secret and tremble at the hour of judgment";—that Revelation which is "complete as to whatever is excellent, and an explanation of every matter, and a mercy, that men may believe in the meeting of their Lord"; for if he does thus reject it, according to the verdict of his own Prophet, "verily he hath wandered into a wide and fatal error," قد ضل ضلالاً بعيداً . Above all let him beware of blaspheming (like some of the degenerate Mussulmans of the present day) that holy Book, and of thus sealing his doom as "a transgressing and flagitious Unbeliever."—Art. CXXIV.

What fearful audacity is displayed by some of the modern Mahometans (unworthy disciples in this respect of their Prophet!) who ignorantly and blasphemously speak against "the Book which God hath sent down, "the holy "Forcân," "the Word of God"!

As for ourselves, the People of the Book, it is only in conformity with the express inculcation of the Prophet of Islâm, that we observe, and hold by, both the Law and the Gospel (Art. CXXVII.); and that, in accordance with his challenge, we examine those

TESTIMONY TO THE HOLY SCRIPTURES 239
Scriptures to which he appealed before the people of Arabia as his witness, to see whether or no they bear testimony to his mission. And it is the sacred duty of every Mussulman, in order that he may guard against the possibility of fatal deception, to do the same.

Lastly; all honest Moslems are called on to believe, for they cannot consistently disbelieve, that these Scriptures are the inspired "Word of God" (كلام الله) "that they are a light to lighten Mankind," (نوراً وهدى للناس) "an illumination and admonition to the Pious" (ضياً وذكراً للمتقين); in fine, that they are calculated to lead those that follow their precepts into the way of peace, and make them wise unto salvation. Why, then, will they neglect so precious a source of spiritual benefit as (the Corân itself being judge) exists in the Old and New Testaments, and shut themselves out from their illumination? Let them search the Scriptures diligently, and they will find the whole tenor of those sacred Books to be "that God is in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself";— that Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life"; "This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent."

THE END.

Enough of the dishonour to Muhammad (CORRECT NAME)s.a.w.who didn't ask anything for himself.He didn't ever claim to be more than a Messenger, a Human being....
That was the final message of God to humans.."Do Not Exaggerate"
All Muslims ,1 out 5 of the world's population , can never think about dis-honouring Jesus a.s.....see this is the difference!
May Allah remove your blindness with His Messianic Power and guide you to the Truth of Jesus a.s.'s REAL MESSAGE.

Ameen

LAKUM DEENUKUM WALIYA DEEN......WA SALAMUN ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULLAH!


**************************************************
.قُلۡ هُوَ ٱللَّهُ أَحَدٌ (١) ٱللَّهُ ٱلصَّمَدُ (٢) لَمۡ يَلِدۡ وَلَمۡ يُولَدۡ (٣) وَلَمۡ يَكُن لَّهُ ۥ ڪُفُوًا أَحَدٌ (٤)
***************************************************
Say: He is Allah, the One!
(1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
(2) He BEGETTETH not nor was BEGOTTEN.
(3) And there is none COMPARABLE unto Him.

THE END INDEED....!

NONO, What do you say about the Korans instructions that I have given to you. You see I have given you something you cannot deny! You silence will not give credence to all you have publicly written and so you need to let those who have been observing our debate know where you stand on these holy writings that you have so ignonomously cursed with your blasphemy concerning his holy messenger Christ. You need to confess you sin before all and state your sin for what you have written letting everyone know that you were wrong about what you were saying. I call on you as a brother in the faith to humble yourself and give god the glory. Is Christ the son of the living God? Did he die on the cross and did he rise from the dead according to those scriptures we now have ? You said that these holy writings are forgeries!!! It’s all written down for the world to see!! Did not Mahomet write this down clearly enough for you or are you going to ignore him also and remain entrenched in your postmodern analysis of condemning the holy writing handed down to us!!! Is he the only true God as stated in the Koran ? SPEAK UP FOR GOD IS CALLING ON YOU TO TELL THE TRUTH!!! Do you think you can be silent on this issue? God himself saw everything you wrote and he will hold you accountable unless you make amends to this!


The Scriptures current in the time of Mahomet and for centuries before,—in those very Scriptures, namely, of which Mahomet in the Corân so constantly and unconditionally asserts the truth. The true Mussulman has, therefore, no option but to accept, and believe in, those Scriptures just as they stand.
Why, then, will they neglect so precious a source of spiritual benefit as (the Corân itself being judge) exists in the Old and New Testaments, and shut themselves out from their illumination? Let them search the Scriptures diligently, and they will find the whole tenor of those sacred Books to be "that God is in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself";— that Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life"; "This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent."

MVastano

"ONE RELIGION": THE RELIGION OF "GOD"

(NOT THE RELIGION OF ANY SINGLE PERSON)

*******************************************************************

Surah Ash Shura :42:13-15 (Pickthall) (quranexplorer.com)

۞ شَرَعَ لَكُم مِّنَ ٱلدِّينِ مَا وَصَّىٰ بِهِۦ نُوحً۬ا وَٱلَّذِىٓ أَوۡحَيۡنَآ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَا وَصَّيۡنَا بِهِۦۤ إِبۡرَٲهِيمَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰٓ‌ۖ أَنۡ أَقِيمُواْ ٱلدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُواْ فِيهِ‌ۚ كَبُرَ عَلَى ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ مَا تَدۡعُوهُمۡ إِلَيۡهِ‌ۚ ٱللَّهُ يَجۡتَبِىٓ إِلَيۡهِ مَن يَشَآءُ وَيَہۡدِىٓ إِلَيۡهِ مَن يُنِيبُ

He hath ordained for you that RELIGION which He commended unto NOAH, and that which We inspire in thee (MUHAMMAD), and that which We commended unto ABRAHAM and MOSES and JESUS, saying: ESTABLISH THE RELIGION, AND BE NOT DIVIDED THEREIN . Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him)

وَمَا تَفَرَّقُوٓاْ إِلَّا مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَا جَآءَهُمُ ٱلۡعِلۡمُ بَغۡيَۢا بَيۡنَہُمۡ‌ۚ وَلَوۡلَا كَلِمَةٌ۬ سَبَقَتۡ مِن رَّبِّكَ إِلَىٰٓ أَجَلٍ۬ مُّسَمًّ۬ى لَّقُضِىَ بَيۡنَہُمۡ‌ۚ وَإِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ أُورِثُواْ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِهِمۡ لَفِى شَكٍّ۬ مِّنۡهُ مُرِيبٍ۬

And they were not divided until AFTER THE KNOWLEDGE came unto them, through rivalry among themselves; and had it not been for a Word that had already gone forth from thy Lord for an appointed term, it surely had been judged between them. And those who were made to inherit the Scripture after them are verily in hopeless doubt concerning it.


فَلِذَٲلِكَ فَٱدۡعُ‌ۖ وَٱسۡتَقِمۡ ڪَمَآ أُمِرۡتَ‌ۖ وَلَا تَتَّبِعۡ أَهۡوَآءَهُمۡ‌ۖ وَقُلۡ ءَامَنتُ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ مِن ڪِتَـٰبٍ۬‌ۖ وَأُمِرۡتُ لِأَعۡدِلَ بَيۡنَكُمُ‌ۖ ٱللَّهُ رَبُّنَا وَرَبُّكُمۡ‌ۖ لَنَآ أَعۡمَـٰلُنَا وَلَكُمۡ أَعۡمَـٰلُڪُمۡ‌ۖ لَا حُجَّةَ بَيۡنَنَا وَبَيۡنَكُمُ‌ۖ ٱللَّهُ يَجۡمَعُ بَيۡنَنَا‌ۖ وَإِلَيۡهِ ٱلۡمَصِيرُ

Unto this, then, summon (O Muhammad). And be thou upright as thou art commanded, and follow not their lusts, but say: I believe in whatever scripture Allah hath sent down, and I am commanded to be just among you. ALLAH IS OUR LORD AND YOUR LORD.UNTO US OUR WORK AND ONTO YOU YOUR WORK; NO ARGUMENT BETWEEN US AND YOU. ALLAH WILL BRING US TOGETHER, AND UNTO HIM IS THE JOURNING...........


****************************************************************

Surah An-Nisa 4:171
***************************************************************

يَـٰٓأَهۡلَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ لَا تَغۡلُواْ فِى دِينِڪُمۡ وَلَا تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ إِلَّا ٱلۡحَقَّ‌ۚ إِنَّمَا ٱلۡمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَڪَلِمَتُهُ ۥۤ أَلۡقَٮٰهَآ إِلَىٰ مَرۡيَمَ وَرُوحٌ۬ مِّنۡهُ‌ۖ فَـَٔامِنُواْ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِۦ‌ۖ وَلَا تَقُولُواْ ثَلَـٰثَةٌ‌ۚ ٱنتَهُواْ خَيۡرً۬ا لَّڪُمۡ‌ۚ إِنَّمَا ٱللَّهُ إِلَـٰهٌ۬ وَٲحِدٌ۬‌ۖ سُبۡحَـٰنَهُ ۥۤ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ ۥ وَلَدٌ۬‌ۘ لَّهُ ۥ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ‌ۗ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ وَڪِيلاً۬

O PEOPLE OF SCRIPTURE! DO NOT EXAGGERETE IN YOUR RELIGION nor utter aught concerning Allah save 'THE TRUTH'. The MESSIAH, JESUS SON OF MARY, 'was' only a MESSENGER OF ALLAH, and His WORD which He conveyed unto Mary, and a SPIRIT from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only ONE God. FAR IS IT REMOVED FROM HIS TRANSCENDENT MAJESTY THAT HE SHOULD HAVE A SON. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

******************************************************************
-:END:-

QURAN'S MESSAGE:
****************

TO JEWS:

"YES , THERE WAS A MAN OF GOD , CALLED JESUS"

TO CHRISTIANS:

"JESUS WAS NOT GOD/SON OF GOD"

TO IDOLATORS:

"THERE'S NO GOD BESIDE GOD"

TO MUSLIMS:

"DO NOT DIVIDE/CONTAMINATE THE RELIGION OF GOD"

FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!!!

***************************

Wa ma alaina illul balaagh!

NONO, Will you not desist from your blasphemy!
THE CORÂN.
VIII.-SURA XXXIV., v. 31. The Resurrection as you yourself Denied!


سورة سبأ

وقال الذينَ كفروا لن نؤمنَ بهذا القرآن ولا بالذي بين يديه


And the unbelievers say;—We will not believe in this Corân, nor in that (which was revealed) before it.


"The revelation before it"; lit., that between its hands, —already existing, and preceding the Corân.

Baidhâwi explains: The unbelievers say "We will not believe in this Corân, nor in that which precedeth it of the Scriptures testifying to the Mission of Mahomet;" البعثولا بما تقدمه من ا لكتب الدالة على ;—And Jelalooddeen adds, as the Tourât and the Gospel; كالتوراة والإنجيل


Mahomet, in his reasoning with the citizens of Mecca, appealed to the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, as well as to the Corân, in proof of the Resurrection which they denied. But they replied that they believed neither in the one nor in the other.

XXV.—SURA XL., vv. 72.[70-72] Speaking Falsely Against Scripture as you yourself stated!



سورة غافر

فَسَوْفَ يَعْلَمُونالَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا بِالْكِتَابِ وَبِمَا أَرْسَلْنَا بِهِ رُسُلَنَا َ
يُسْحَبُونإِذِ الأغْلالُ فِي أَعْنَاقِهِمْ وَالسَّلاسِلُ َ
فِي الْحَمِيمِ ثُمَّ فِي النَّارِ يُسْجَرُونَ


They who reject the book, and that which We have sent our messengers with,—they shall know;
when the collars shall be on their necks, and the chains by which they shall be dragged into hell;
then they shall be burned in the fire


These awful punishments are threatened not only against the rejecters of the Corân, but against the rejecters of that which God sent His previous Messengers with, i.e. the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. Both revelations are placed on the same footing; the danger of their rejection is the same.

When Mussulmans of the present day are tempted to speak despitefully of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, and of their divine contents, let them weigh well such passages of the Corân as the above, lest they incur the peril of the punishment here indicated.

XXXIV.—SURA X., v. 93[94]. Scriptures Idenified as Free From Corruption As you yourself Denied!

سورة يونس

مِنالْكِتَابَ يَقْرَؤُونَ الَّذِينَ فَاسْأَلِ إِلَيْكَ أَنزَلْنَا مِّمَّا شَكٍّ كُنتَ فِي فَإِن الْمُمْتَرِينمِنَ تَكُونَنَّ فَلاَ رَّبِّكَ مِن الْحَقُّ جَاءكَ لَقَدْ قَبْلِكَ َ

If thou art in doubt regarding that which We have sent down unto thee, then ask those who read the book (revealed) before thee. Verily the truth hath come unto thee from thy Lord; be not therefore amongst those that doubt.
It is the Jewish and Christian Scriptures thus in current use throughout the civilized world in the time of Mahomet, which by being so appealed to, for the purpose of silencing the doubts of the Prophet, are stamped by the Corân not only as inspired, but as genuine, pure, and free from corruption.
Christ is lord of Glory ,Incarnate God!!!

25:63 And the true servants of the Gracious God are those who walk on the earth humbly and when the IGNORANT address them, they AVOID them gracefully by saying, `Peace'


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....."P E A C E".....

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NONO'S SISTER IN FAITH



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2:135 And they say, `Be ye Jews or Christians, then you will be rightly guided,' Say `Nay, but follow ye the religion of Abraham who was ever inclined to ALLAH; he was not of those who associated gods with ALLAH.'

Nono and His Sister,

When it comes down to being honest about truth it means being humble enought to admit you just don't have all the answers. Nono you say you are open to correction but when confronted with your own authoritaive texts you run hide behind your own blind ignorance. Jesus said to his contemporaries John 9:41 , If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains.
I am clear about the matter now. It really is a matter of personal belief. I myself believe in the Messiah, Jesus. I hope you come to this revealed truth before its too late.
His Faithful Servant
Mike

As-salaamu alay-kum, Silent.

Kindly review my translations, compare them with the Arabic, and allow me the necessary corrections that you believe are not true. Thanks.

Surah Ash Shura :42:13-15, My translation from the Arabic:

42:13 (1) He legislated for you from the STANDARDS [Note 1] what is recommended by Him to NOAH and those whom We pointed out (indicated) to you [Note 2]. (2) What We recommended by Him to ABRAHAM, MOSES, and JESUS was TO ESTABLISH THE STANDARDS. (3) DO NOT BE DIVIDED THEREIN. (4) It was difficult to the polytheists (idol worshippers) in what you summon them to. [Note 3] (5) Allāh gathers to Himself whomever He wills and guides whoever repents. 42:14 (1) They did not become divided except AFTER WHAT KNOWLEDGE CAME TO THEM [in the form of] tyranny among them. (2) If not for words that preceded from your Developer (Lord) to specified periods, surely it would have been settled [Note 1] (decided judicially) among them. (3) Indeed, those who inherit the Books (Scriptures) after them surely are in doubt of it suspiciously. 42:15 (1) So summons for that then, [Note 1] (2) and establish like what you were commanded. (3) Do not follow their fancies [Note 2]. (4) Say, “I believe in what Allāh sent down of the Books [Scriptures]. (5) I was commanded to be fair among you. (6) Allāh is our Developer (Lord) and your Developer (Lord). (7) We work for ourselves; you work for yourselves. (8) There is no argument among us and among you. (9) Allāh will gather among us. (10) To Him is the destiny.”

۞ شَرَعَ لَكُم مِّنَ ٱلدِّينِ مَا وَصَّىٰ بِهِۦ نُوحً۬ا وَٱلَّذِىٓ أَوۡحَيۡنَآ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَا وَصَّيۡنَا بِهِۦۤ إِبۡرَٲهِيمَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰٓ‌ۖ أَنۡ أَقِيمُواْ ٱلدِّينَ وَلَا تَتَفَرَّقُواْ فِيهِ‌ۚ كَبُرَ عَلَى ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ مَا تَدۡعُوهُمۡ إِلَيۡهِ‌ۚ ٱللَّهُ يَجۡتَبِىٓ إِلَيۡهِ مَن يَشَآءُ وَيَہۡدِىٓ إِلَيۡهِ مَن يُنِيبُ (١٣) وَمَا تَفَرَّقُوٓاْ إِلَّا مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَا جَآءَهُمُ ٱلۡعِلۡمُ بَغۡيَۢا بَيۡنَہُمۡ‌ۚ وَلَوۡلَا كَلِمَةٌ۬ سَبَقَتۡ مِن رَّبِّكَ إِلَىٰٓ أَجَلٍ۬ مُّسَمًّ۬ى لَّقُضِىَ بَيۡنَہُمۡ‌ۚ وَإِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ أُورِثُواْ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِهِمۡ لَفِى شَكٍّ۬ مِّنۡهُ مُرِيبٍ۬ (١٤)

13. (1) şara’a [√şr’ fa’ala, 3rd, m., sing., perf. act., Stem I] la-kum mina d-dīni mā waṣṣā [√wṣy, 3rd, m., sing., perf. act., Stem II) perfect verb] bi-hi nūḥan wa llaṭī awḥay-nā [√wḥy af’al, 1st, m., pl., Stem IV] ilay-ka (2) wa mā waṣṣay-nā bi-hi ibrāhīma wa mūsā wa ’īsā an aqīmū d-dīna (3) wa lā tatafarraqū [√frq ta+tafa’’alū, 2nd, m., pl., impf. act., jussive mood, Stem V] fī-hi (4) kabura [√kbr fa’ula, 3rd, m., sing., perf. act., Stem I] ‘alā l-muşrikīna mā tad’ū-hum ilay-hi (5) Allāhu yajtabī [√jtb yaf’alī, ] ilay-hi man yaşā’u wa yahdī ilay-hi man yunību [√nwb] 14. (1) Wa mā tafarraqū illā min ba’di mā jā’a-humu l-‘ilmu bağyan [√bgy fa’lan, acc., m., indef. n.] bayna-hum (2) wa law lā kalimatun sabaqat min rabbi-ka ilā ajalin musamman la quđiya bayna-hum (3) wa ‘inna allaṭīna ‘ūriŧū [√wrŧ, ‘uf’ila: ‘uwriŧū → ‘ūriŧū] l-kitāba min ba’di-him la-fī şakkin min-hu murībin [√ryb muf’ilin, gen., m., indef., act. pcple, Stem IV]

NOTES
Verse 13, Note 1: A common translation of the root √dyn in its noun formats is usually translated as religion; however, the Arabic is actually quite specific. While it is correct that, in Islam, you don't "join" a religion, and you surely do not join a "standard," true Muslims embrace the "Standards" Allah has given us. This verse does not tell us that Allah ordained a √mll (in noun format). It specifically tells us that He legislated a √dyn which is best described as a standard (√dyn) and not as a religion (√mll). The reason the actual Qur'an is so specific is because there is only one true religion, the religion of Allah, and Allah is ONE GOD and is therefore not divided. That is the significance of this verse.

Verse 13, Note 2: The Arabic Qur'an does not say "Muhammad" here, so why does the "interpreter" of this verse do so?

Verse 13, Note 3: This fourth part of this verse was actually misinterpreted, possibly quite innocently, by Pickthall, but the grammatics in the Arabic were intentional. Therefore, it's important for Muslims or anyone interested in quoting from the Qur'an to make sure that what they are trying to convey from the Qur'an is correct; otherwise, although innocently done, such people will be among those whom the Qur'an says will be punished on Judgment Day for misleading people and hindering them from the established path of Allah.

Verse 14, Note 1: The "interpreter" of this verse uses "judged between them" for the root √qđy. Among the many words that suit the description of this root are: to finish entirely by word/deed, decreed/ordained/pronounced/decide judicially, pass a sentence, create, bring to an end, attained/obtained/accomplished/satisfied, execute, settle, discharge, to make known, reveal

Verse 15, Note 1: See Verse 13, Note 2.

Verse 15, Note 2: The "interpreter" interprets the root √hwy as "lust;" however, although that lust may be the fancy, √hwy can be any type of fancy or desire. Lust is truly "interpretation" versus "translation" of what is taken from the Arabic. Personally, I think it is too narrow for an interpretation of √hwy and the word used in English should be as generalized as √hwy was meant to be.

If my post is out of line or incorrect, I encourage you to make me stand corrected. I welcome honest responses.

Wa alaikum assalaam NKingston, Jazakallah..there's no harm in checking every pros and cons...as long as the 'main Idea' of the contents is 'well-understood'!

To Mike..Never misunderstand/challenge the 'love' and 'respect', a Muslim has for Jesus alaihissalam, one of the most beloved and honoured Messenger of Allah, which is deeply-rooted in the heart of every Muslim as an essential part of Faith....

I strongly believe that TODAY, the RELIGION OF GOD needs a REVIVAL in the TRUE-SPIRIT-OF-GOD , the way Jesus-The Messiah (The Word and Spirit of God) revived it , long ago...when the Religion was nothing but a 'Castle Of Rituals' to enter and leave..with empty hearts and heads...

And,

It does not need the PHYSICAL PRESENCE of any Messenger...but it is possible by the ACCEPTANCE OF THEIR TRUE MESSAGES...ONLY!

It's never too late to mend!!!!!!!

Wassalaam... A Sister

As-salaamu alay-kum, Silent.

Kindly review my translations again as found below, compare them with the Arabic, and allow me the necessary corrections that you believe are not true. Thanks.

4:171 O people of the Books (Scriptures)! (1) Do not go beyond limits in your standards. (Also: Do not overdo it in your standards.) [Note 1] (2) Do not say anything against Allāh except the truth. ((3b) The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary was (3a) only (3c) a Messenger of Allāh (3d) and His word. (4) He [Jesus] caused Mary and spirits from Him [Allāh] to meet [Note 2], (5) so believe in Allāh and His Messenger. (6) Do not say, “Three [Trinity].” (7) Forbid each other. (8) It is better for you. (9) Indeed what Allāh is is one. [Note 3] (10) Glory to Him! (11) that He should have sons! [Note 4] (12) He has what is in the heavens and what is in the earth! [Note 5] (13) It is enough by Allāh and to [His] ambassadors (agents, representatives, etc.) [Note 6]

يَـٰٓأَهۡلَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ
(1) لَا تَغۡلُواْ فِى دِينِڪُمۡ
(2) وَلَا تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ إِلَّا ٱلۡحَقَّ‌ۚ
(3) إِنَّمَا ٱلۡمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَڪَلِمَتُهُ
(4)أَلۡقَٮٰهَآ إِلَىٰ مَرۡيَمَ وَرُوحٌ۬ مِّنۡهُ‌ۖ
(5) فَـَٔامِنُواْ بِٱللَّهِ وَرُسُلِهِۦ‌ۖ
(6) وَلَا تَقُولُواْ ثَلَـٰثَةٌ‌ۚ
(7) ٱنتَهُواْ
(8) خَيۡرً۬ا لَّڪُمۡ‌ۚ
(9) إِنَّمَا ٱللَّهُ إِلَـٰهٌ۬ وَٲحِدٌ۬‌ۖ
(10) سُبۡحَـٰنَهُ
(11) أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ ۥ وَلَدٌ۬‌ۘ
(12) لَّهُ ۥ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ‌ۗ
(13) وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ وَڪِيلاً۬
(١٧١)

171. Yā ahla l-kitābi (1) lā tağlū fī-dīni-kum (2) wa lā taqūlū ‘alā llāhi illā l-ḥaqqa (3a) innamā (3b) l-masīḥu ‘īsā ibnu maryama (3c) rasūlu Allāhi (3d) wa kalimatu-hu (4) alqā-hā [√lqy af’al, perf. act., Stem IV] ilā maryama wa rūḥun min-hu (5) fa āminū billāhi wa rusuli-hi (6) wa lā taqūlū ŧalāŧatun (7) intahū [√nhw/y ifta’ala, impv., Stem VIII] (8) xayran la-kum (9) inna-mā llāhu ilāhun wāḥidun (10) subḥāna-hu (11) an yakūna la-hu waladun (12) la-hu mā fīs-samāwāti wa mā fīl-arđi (13) wa kafā billāhi wa kīlān

Verse 171, Note 1: The translation you provide and my translation are actually both correct although they seem to be saying something somewhat different than each other, but I guess the key words are religion versus standards. Either Allah is commanding the Jews to not exaggerate their religion or not overdo it in their standards . (1) lā tağlū [√ğlw] fī-dīni-kum (وَلَا تَقُولُواْ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ إِلَّا ٱلۡحَقَّ‌ۚ إِنَّمَا ) seems to be quite clear grammatically and the words from the Arabic seem to be quite clear as well. Among the meanings that √ğlw has and can be translated into English are: to exceed the proper limit, excessive, exorbitant, luxuriant, grow tall, utmost extent of a shot or throw, behaving with forced hardness or rigor and so on. Does exaggerate which means to enlarge beyond bounds or the truth parallel in the translation you have with mine? What do you think?

Verse 171, Note 2: The fourth part of this verse is (4) alqā-hā [√lqy af’al, perf. act., Stem IV] ilā maryama wa rūḥun min-hu (أَلۡقَٮٰهَآ إِلَىٰ مَرۡيَمَ). Stem IV in the perfective active format means that the verb was causative. Grammatically speaking as regards the Arabic, my translation seems to correct the translation you have provided, "which He conveyed unto Mary, and a SPIRIT from Him." This part of the Arabic is not part of the previous thought as one sentence. It is a complete and separate sentence in order to convey what Allah was intending for us to understand, namely that Jesus caused Mary and Spirits from Allah to meet, thus conjoining the conclusive thought as to that thought being why we should believe in Allah and His Messengers.

Verse 171, Note 3: The ninth part of this verse was revealed with intention as we find it in the Arabic. It does not just represent the fact that Allah is one God, but he is one being, one entity, regardless of what that being or entity He is may be. There is not more than one Allah, one God.

Verse 171, Note 4: The 10th part of this verse is an exclamatory idiom in Arabic and the 11th part tells us why the exclamatory idiom was made. √sbḥ actually means to float, and thus to swim. When you make an exclamation about someone or something floating without reference to aquatics, the exclamation is about something floating in the sky. When we exclaim "√sbḥ Him!" the best way to translate this exclamation is by saying "Praise Him!" or "Glory to Him!" or "His Highness!" all because of floating in the air. This idiom combined with the conclusive thought then is exclaiming that highness, or as the translation you provided alludes to, majesty is too high in His station to need children. That's why a better translation is like what I translated directly from the Arabic.

Verse 171, Note 5: (12) la-hu mā fīs-samāwāti wa mā fīl-arđi (لَّهُ ۥ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ‌ۗ ) starts off what literally means "for him" - "la-hu." This is how one says in Arabic "There is for him..." and "He has..." The translation you provided from Mr. Pickthall reads as though what belongs to Allah is the heaven and the earth. This is truly a mistranslation. The Arabic transfers over the other way around. A correct translation will read that Allah has these items or he owns them, not that these items represent all that He has.

Verse 171, Note 6: If you check the grammar of the 13th part of this verse, you cannot help but agree that the translation you provided from Pickthall is completely in error. The root √kfy is in the 3rd person, masculine, singular, perfect verb format which verbs are in the context of "it did..." "bi-(A)llāhi" means "of Allah" and comes after a completed verb, and kīlān is an accusative, plural noun format. The format of this sentence so far tells us "It did something of someone and to something. Properly translated and based on the grammatical format presented in the Arabic presented in the Qur'an, the intentional meaning of the Qur'an should not be lost in translation. Therefore, it should be translated in the same context of or approximately to "It is enough by Allāh and to [His] ambassadors (agents, representatives, etc.)." without losing the intended meaning presented in the actual Qur'an, not that Allah is not sufficient as Defender, but as true as the statement in Pickthall's translation may be that's not what the Qur'an actually means or says. Also there is an "and" between bi-(A)llāhi, a genetive noun, and
kīlān, an accusative, plural noun. "Wa" has several meanings in Arabic, but as in this case, it usually means "and."

If my post is out of line or incorrect, I encourage you to make me stand corrected. I welcome honest responses.

Peace out.

Nono

As-Salaamu Alay-Kum, Mike.

You said: NONO, Will you not desist from your blasphemy!
My response: You sure have a few hairs up your rectum today, don't you. If not, then kindly start your case against me properly and with reasoning.

You wrote
THE CORÂN.
VIII.-SURA XXXIV., v. 31. The Resurrection as you yourself Denied!
My response: Pull the reigns back and get a hold of your horses, brother. When you make a claim that I said or did something, let me have the context. I don't deny that there will be a resurrection, but I do deny the cruci-fiction of Jesus and the story of him resurrecting on the 3rd day. That having been said, you can quote me in this context. Otherwise, you'll need a little clarification to your claim against me. Now, let's analyze your quotations from the Qur'an and see if you know what you are talking about. Fair enough, brother? Or is that going to be considered blasphemy too?

To begin with, I question why you call the Qur'an "THE CORÂN." Please advise me of what the word you are using means, what it's triliteral root is, and what the word format is, so that we can understand why you call it what you call it. Otherwise, you are just speaking out of your rectum again.

You quote from سُوۡرَةُ سَبَا verse 31, which reads as follows:

34:31 (1) Those who rejected said, “We will never believe in this, the recitations, and not that which is in its presence. (2a) If you shall see when the unjust ones are standing before their Developer (Lord), (2b) some of them will return the things said to others. [In other words, interpretation: (2) If you are able to see the unjust one when they stand before their Lord, they are going to pass blame on each other.] (3) Those who were oppressed (feeble, weak, infirm) will say to those who think they are mighty (who are arrogant), (3a) “If not for you, we would be believers.”

وَقَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لَن نُّؤۡمِنَ بِهَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانِ وَلَا بِٱلَّذِى بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِۗ وَلَوۡ تَرَىٰٓ إِذِ ٱلظَّـٰلِمُونَ مَوۡقُوفُونَ عِندَ رَبِّہِمۡ يَرۡجِعُ بَعۡضُهُمۡ إِلَىٰ بَعۡضٍ ٱلۡقَوۡلَ يَقُولُ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱسۡتُضۡعِفُواْ لِلَّذِينَ ٱسۡتَكۡبَرُواْ لَوۡلَآ أَنتُمۡ لَكُنَّا مُؤۡمِنِينَ (٣١)

31. (1) Wa qāla llaṭīna kafarū lan nu’mina bi-hāṭā l-qur’āni wa lā billaṭī bayna yaday-hi (2a) wa law tarā [√ray, 2nd, m., sing., impf. act., Stem I] iṭi ž-žālimūna mawqūfūna [√wqy maf’ilūna, nom., m., pl., pass. pcple.] ‘inda rabbi-him (2b) yarji’u [√rj’] ba’đu-hum ilā ba’đin al-qawla (3) yaqūlu llaṭīna istuđ’ifū [√đ’f ustuf’ilū, 3rd, m., pl., perf. pass., Stem X] lillaṭīna istakbarū (3a) law lā antum lakunnā mu’minīna
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I am not sure where you get your translation, but apparently, you are simply testifying to the fact that you are among the unjust ones based on your initial greeting in the post I am responding to and this verse. I appreciate your honest insight regarding your state of ignorance.
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You quoted the Qur'an as follows:

And the unbelievers say;—We will not believe in this Corân, nor in that (which was revealed) before it.

"The revelation before it"; lit., that between its hands, —already existing, and preceding the Corân.

My response: The first part of the first sentence you quote is acceptable, but the second part requires that you understand Arabic idioms that are a necessary part of understanding the Qur'an, and which is really not all that complicated. Your explanation on the literality of the words is correct... sort of. It's "...between its hand," singular. What you claim to be "...the revelations before it" is more correctly meant "...the communications (recitations, narrations, stories, etc.) in its presence."

You stated:
Baidhâwi explains: The unbelievers say "We will not believe in this Corân, nor in that which precedeth it of the Scriptures testifying to the Mission of Mahomet;" البعثولا بما تقدمه من ا لكتب الدالة على ;—And Jelalooddeen adds, as the Tourât and the Gospel; كالتوراة والإنجيل

My response: This is interesting, and in line with what the Qur'an has to say, but, staying within context with what the verse you present means, why reiterate what you already did justice with when quoting the Qur'an? Maybe Baidhawi is a good reiterater of the Qur'an, but what is your point in quoting him?

Question: You write "Mahomet" when you refer to Muhammad. Why is that? Where do you get this form of his name? It certainly does not seem to parallel with the tri-literal root nor the word format of the name. The spelling you give and that many others give goes to show how ignorant are the people pretending to know what others actually do know.

You wrote:
Mahomet, in his reasoning with the citizens of Mecca, appealed to the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, as well as to the Corân, in proof of the Resurrection which they denied. But they replied that they believed neither in the one nor in the other.

My response: Your point please? I realize that Muhammad, Islam, and the Qur'an are fulfilments of the Jewish Scriptures, and that the Christian Scriptures - which are nothing like we know them today (bound up in a selected canon) and consisting of many more scattered gospels, acts, apocrypha, and letters from Jerusalem administrators of the Jesus Movement and their companions and letters of Paul and his companions as well as those who somehow were linked with these people - prove that New Testament people knew that Jesus sent Muhammad (The Paraclete in the Gospel of John) and that Paul and whoever else rebelled against Jesus like Paul did against the administration of the Jesus Movement in Jerusalem were infidels. Other than that, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. It appears to me that you are embracing Islam while on the other hand you are calling me a blasphemer, so I'm confused here.

You quote from سُوۡرَةُ المؤمن / غَافر, verses 70 - 72, which reads as follows:

40:70 Those who deceive (invent lies, deny) with the Book and by what We sent with it, Our Messengers, then they will soon know: 40:71 When the shackles (iron collars) are around their necks and the restraints (chains) drag… 40:72…in the extreme heat, then they will burn in the fire. (*)

ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَذَّبُواْ بِٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ وَبِمَآ أَرۡسَلۡنَا بِهِۦ رُسُلَنَاۖ فَسَوۡفَ يَعۡلَمُونَ (٧٠) إِذِ ٱلۡأَغۡلَـٰلُ فِىٓ أَعۡنَـٰقِهِمۡ وَٱلسَّلَـٰسِلُ يُسۡحَبُونَ (٧١) فِى ٱلۡحَمِيمِ ثُمَّ فِى ٱلنَّارِ يُسۡجَرُونَ (٧٢)

70. Allaṭīna kaṭṭabū bil-kitābi wa bi-mā arsal-nā [perf. act., Stem IV] bi-hi rusula-nā fa sawfa ya’lamūna 71. Iṭi l-‘ağlālu fī a’nāqi-him wa s-salāsilu yusḥabūna 72. Fī l-ḥamīmi ŧumma fī n-nāri yusjarūna
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I am not sure where you get your translation, but apparently, you are simply testifying again to the fact that you are worried that you will be among those dragged into the fire. If I am wrong, please correct me. I am glad that you are eager to embrace the truth.

You quoted the Qur'an as follows:

XXV.—SURA XL., vv. 72.[70-72] Speaking Falsely Against Scripture as you yourself stated!



My response: As I stated, I don't know where you get your translation, but apparently it does not come from the Qur'an. Possibly it is a third or fourth hand interpretation of an interpretation? The reason I suspect this is because in reviewing the Arabic which you have so kindly provided, the interpreter had the gist of it right, but it was not translated correctly. Here's why.

1. The translation you provided:
1.1 They who reject the book, 1.2 and that which We have sent our messengers with, 1.3 —they shall know;

The above translation is in error due to the grammatics of the Arabic conveying something different. The Arabic reads Allaṭīna kaṭṭabū bil-kitābi wa bi-mā arsal-nā [perf. act., Stem IV] bi-hi rusula-nā fa sawfa ya’lamūna (ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَذَّبُواْ بِٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ وَبِمَآ أَرۡسَلۡنَا بِهِۦ رُسُلَنَاۖ فَسَوۡفَ يَعۡلَمُونَ). Parts 1.1 and 1.2 of your translation above are treated as if a "," is appropriate in the English translation; however "Allaṭīna kaṭṭabū..." grammatically refers to BOTH "...bil-kitābi..." AND "...bi-mā arsal-nā bi-hi..." In addition, in 1.2, the translator neglects to include what is written in Arabic in the English were it makes a difference. The "...bi-hi..." part refers to the "...rusula-nā." part. In other words, 1.1 should read as follows: "Those who deceive (invent lies, deny) with the Book..." 1.2 should read as follows: and by what We sent with it, Our Messengers..." and 1.3 tells us what we need to know about 1.1 and 1.2. That's the way every verse in the Qur'an is set up whether it is by a single verse or several verses. This is why it is so important to know what you are saying before you start quoting things you have no real clue about. That's dangerously ignorant. The Qur'an is a very special piece of work and it always has been. It deserves to be treated with more respect and honour by a person who desires to be right with the Lord.

2. The translation you provided:
2.1 when the collars shall be on their necks, 2.2 and the chains 2.3 by which they shall be dragged into hell; 2.4 then they shall be burned in the fire

My response:
The same error I pointed out with 1.1 and 1.2 applies here as well to 2.1 and 2.2 and should read something like "When the shackles (iron collars) are around their necks and the restraints (chains) drag..." The reason being is "Iṭi l-‘ağlālu fī a’nāqi-him" and "wa s-salāsilu yusḥabūna" are two aspects of a complete thought grammatically made by two verses. Verse 71 is created for visualization, and verse 72 is for intensification of the visual given in verse 71. The Lord revealed these verses intentionally and with purpose and in a manner that in His infinite wisdom He felt was best, and the way it is found in Arabic only goes to prove how miraculous the Lord works through the Qur'an.

In 2.3, there is no "in which they..." and "...into hell." Whoever translated this verse put their own spin on the interpretation. Granted, the interpreter is correct in presenting the idea of dragging all the way to hell, but that is not what the Arabic reads. It slightly changes the meaning which is rather disrespectful to the Lord and His intentions for having revealed the Qur'an, as you are seeing for yourself. In fact, 2.3 is what 2.2 will be doing, so having 2.2 AND 2.3 as they are is a mistranslation and should be "...and the restraints (chains) drag…" in that it initiates the thought that finishes up in the following verse. Thus, verse 71 should read something like "When the shackles (iron collars) are around their necks and the restraints (chains) drag…[elipses should be included in translation]" and verse 72 should read something like "...in the extreme heat, then they will burn in the fire." If you don't believe me, learn the Arabic for yourself.

You stated:
These awful punishments are threatened not only against the rejecters of the Corân, but against the rejecters of that which God sent His previous Messengers with, i.e. the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. Both revelations are placed on the same footing; the danger of their rejection is the same.

My response:
Read the passage correctly and in context, and you will see that it applies to rejecters of any communiqué from Allah, whether it's rejection of the Torah that Jesus was a strict observer of or the Qur'an or any other communiqué from Allah as it was revealed by Allah. Because the former Scriptures are no longer in their pure and original state, the Lord sent us what we call "The Qur'an." As for the Christian Scripture, only those who follow the errors of the New Testament, which consists of almost 90% of it I would guess, will deserve the punishment that you fear. If you are humble before the Lord, why should you worry? If you are humble before the Lord, don't you think it would behove you to submit yourself heart and soul to Him? That's the only way to receive salvation from the grave.

You stated:
When Mussulmans of the present day are tempted to speak despitefully of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, and of their divine contents, let them weigh well such passages of the Corân as the above, lest they incur the peril of the punishment here indicated.

My response:
To begin with, we’re talking about Islam here, not men who hunt for the genus Mytilus mussels. If you meant Muslims, don’t call us mussel men. You’re mixing apples with seafood.

If you are referring to the evidences of the Hebrew bible presented both by the works outside the Torah that testify to the corruption of the Torah and the actual evidence that all the rest of the Jewish bible has been corrupted, then it makes sense that you would offended if you were a Jew unwilling to submit to Allah because you would be like the Republican in America who aim to be obstructionist in government and stick together and remain in their parties because they are too proud to admit that they are wrong even though they know they are wrong. The same thing applies to Christian Scriptures and Christians. The New Testament can't hold up as Scripture because the authority that is used to hold them up as Scripture is the writing of people no one knows such as the four anonymous gospel and apocrypha authors, the forgeries, and the only six letters of Paul that were actually written by Paul. How can you uphold the New Testament as Scripture with such a weak base for its authority? That's pretty ignorant and arrogant at the same time. Would you not agree? If not, tell me honestly why not.

You quote from سُوۡرَةُ یُونس, verses 94-95, which reads as follows:

10:94 (1) So if you are in doubt from what We sent down to you, (2) then ask those who recite the Book (Scripture) from before you. Certainly, the truth from your Lord came to you, so do not be among the people who dispute. 10:95 Do not be among those who lie about signs of God, so do not be among the beguiled.

فإن كنت في شك مما أنزلنا إليك فسءل الذين يقرءون الكتب من قبلك لقد جاءك الحق من ربك فلا تكونن من الممترين ولا تكونن من الذين كذبوا بءايت الله فتكون من الخسرين

94. (1) Fa ‘in kun-ta fī şakkin mimmā anzal-nā ilay-ka (2) fa is’ali [√sal] llaṭīna yaqra’ūna [yaf’alūna] l-kitāba min qabli-ka laqad jā’a-ka l-ḥaqqu min rabbi-ka fa lā takūnanna mina l-mumtarīna [√mtr muf’alīna] 95. Walā takūnanna mina llaṭīna kaṭṭabū [√kṭb] bi-āyāti llāhi fa takūna mina l-xāsirīna

You quoted the Qur'an as follows:
XXXIV.—SURA X., v. 93[94]. Scriptures Idenified as Free From Corruption As you yourself Denied!



3.1 If thou art in doubt regarding that which We have sent down unto thee, then ask those who read the book (revealed) before thee.

Response: If you are in doubt about what Allah sent down to us, did you "ask those who recite the Book (Scripture) from before you" yet? You apparently have been asking me, and only testify on one hand that Islam is true and you need to humble yourself before Our Lord.

3.2 Verily the truth hath come unto thee from thy Lord; be not therefore amongst those that doubt.

Response: You have apparently not disputed any of the passages you quoted in the post I am responding to, so are you quoting this passage to confirm your desire to embrace Islam? Is that what you are telling me? Or am I misreading you?

You stated:
It is the Jewish and Christian Scriptures thus in current use throughout the civilized world in the time of Mahomet, which by being so appealed to, for the purpose of silencing the doubts of the Prophet, are stamped by the Corân not only as inspired, but as genuine, pure, and free from corruption.

Response: Actually, yes and no. The Jewish Scriptures were indeed being used by the Jews, but the Christians really did not have a canon of Scripture until around 1600 A.D., a thousand years after the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad. What the various forms of Christianity had were handful of various gospels, acts, apocrypha, letters of the Jesus Movement administrators in Jerusalem, various letters of Paul both real and forged as all but ten of the ones in the current New Testament are, letters written in the name of Jesus Movement administrators, mostly forged, and the numerous types of Christians could not agree on what was real, forged, relevant, acceptable, or outright heresy or heretical. You know the story about how the New Testament came about, so why lie about it now? You know that there was no New Testament until the 1600s.

You exclaimed:
Christ is lord of Glory ,Incarnate God!!!

You make this exclamation, and yet your own Scriptures do not assign deification to Jesus Christ, and certainly your own Scriptures do not incarnate God into Jesus. According to your own Scriptures, that is blasphemy. In your own Scriptures in a chapter that is very historically wrong, Matthew 23, Jesus is quoted as classify people like yourself as "scribes and Pharisees, hypoocrites." Read the whole chapter. It all applies to you, so if you are going to make such blasphemous exclamations, maybe you should see what your own Scriptures have to say about liars like yourself.

Here's an excerpt of Jesus talking directly to you:
"13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!"

THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO REMEMBER FROM YOUR OWN SCRIPTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!

"...for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

Brother Mike, I know that you are a false prophet just as much as you know you are, and you even present the evidence to that fact. Read on, and if your own Scriptures don't convince you of that, and if your own posts don't convince you of that, then you are pretty naiive or you are just like the Republican Party in America - dumb, straight and simple, spiritually blind, morally bankrupt, and a self-righteous, proud devil incarnate like all Republicans and Christian Terrorist Network Members in America are. Read on, brother:

"16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. [For example, "Christ is lord of Glory ,Incarnate God!!!"] 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. [For example, "Christ is lord of Glory ,Incarnate God!!!"] 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. [For example, "Christ is lord of Glory ,Incarnate God!!!"] 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. [For example, "Christ is lord of Glory ,Incarnate God!!!"] 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. [For example, "Christ is lord of Glory ,Incarnate God!!!"] 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? [By exclaiming, "Christ is lord of Glory ,Incarnate God!!!"?]
Matt 23:13-33 (KJV)

Brother, repent and get to know Jesus really. Submit to Allah, the Supreme God of the entire known universe. If you truly can find Jesus in your heart, you will obey the Messenger that your own Scriptures testify that he sent, namely Prophet Muhammad, may peace and all of Allah's blessings forever be upon him.

Nono

You know, Mike, you're arrogant.

You stated:
When it comes down to being honest about truth it means being humble enought to admit you just don't have all the answers. Nono you say you are open to correction but when confronted with your own authoritaive texts you run hide behind your own blind ignorance.

My response:
When I ask you to prove something, you never respond to the claims you make. Let's start by (a) pointing out when I have ever claimed to have the answers; and (b) when I have been confronted with my authoritative texts and have run and hidden behind my ignorance in blind ignorance of any type. I bet you won't be able to properly reply because you are just sheer stupidity incarnate.

You said:
Jesus said to his contemporaries John 9:41...

Wherein my bible reads as follows:
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
John 9:41 (KJV)

My response: You're an idiot. This verse is clearly referring to you, and you know it.

You stated: I am clear about the matter now. It really is a matter of personal belief.

My response: I would be open to that if it were true in your case, but in reality, you're a hypocrite who is too arrogant to admit that he does not have all the answers and "when confronted with your own authoritaive texts you run hide behind your own blind ignorance." You're a grasshopper.

You said: I myself believe in the Messiah, Jesus.
My response: No, you don't. If you believed in the Messiah Jesus, you would either be a Jew or a Muslim. Jesus was strict Torah observing Jew. You preach, live, and believe in things that Jesus taught against, namely the ten commandments beginning with "I am the Lord thy God..."
(Ex 20:2 (KJV))

You said: I hope you come to this revealed truth before its too late.
My response: You're the devil incarnate and you know it. You are a son of the father of all lies, and you know it. I'll pray for you, but all things are decreed by Allah. That's the revealed truth you fight against. You als o fight against the Messiah, Jesus. That's not revealed truth. Maybe you should stop running from the truth and hiding behind your own blind ignorance "when confronted with your own authoritaive texts."

You concluded: His Faithful Servant
Just like Lucifer, the beautiful son of the morning, you failed to complete your statement. You are "Lucifer's Faithful Servant." I say to you, "Get the hence, Satan!"

Silent said:
Wa alaikum assalaam NKingston, Jazakallah..there's no harm in checking every pros and cons...as long as the 'main Idea' of the contents is 'well-understood'!

I agree. My main objective, as you probably know, is to make sure that the Qur'an is not taken out of context (EVEN BY ME! lol) and that the contents, as you say, are well understood.

FYI, I have met many Muslims and Non-Muslims alike who have the main idea of various passages, but they either take them out of context or intentionally misinterpret them to achieve things that are completely contrary to other verses of the Qur'an and that are grammatically proven to not be what the Arabic (the real Qur'an, that is) is conveying. For that reason, mostly for my own insecurities, if you will, I encourage people to set me straight where I may be wrong so that I can grow and look at myself from outside the box. Of course, as with anyone else, if I think I'm right, I won't budge until I have proof to lead me to consider otherwise.

As-salaamu alay-kum, Sister Silent!

How profound your whole post is about Jesus and the need for a "revival"! I really mean that. I so very much agree with you. When I think of "revival" I think of a Holy Rollers church I went to once, but in my heart of hearts I like the idea that people like you and me CAN SOMEHOW help bring this revival you speak of about. Do you have any ideas of how we can do that without potentially creating a Pentacostal sect of Islam?

Although I'm serious, I'm getting these extremely hilarious visions of Muslims prostrating and then doing ballet and rolling around on the floor, speaking in tongues... Sorry, but I had to share that visual in my head.

Anyway, give me some ideas, and you have my full support where possible. Serious, I like the idea you presented.

Wa lay-kum salaam,

Nono

To MVastano/Mike!

There's just ONE Mathemetical certianity....
**************************************************************************
The ONE GOD has sent down just....ONE RELIGION which has to be the SAME for ALL TIMES (Past/Present/Future)
**************************************************************************

Every argument begins and ends with it.....

That's the only reason.. which ever way different people choose to travel, they finally reach the same destination.

All LAWS of the Universe are CONCENTRIC...ALL FORCES-UNITED..

Take an example of the structure of an ATOM ...or a CELL...or COSMOS....what go you see....
Everything has a common CENTRE...A POINT OF CONVERGENCE!

So We can DEDUCE on account of the above hypothesis..

That..

-:THERE IS/HAS TO BE JUST ONE LAW FOR ALL THE HUMANS, ALIKE:-

If God is ONE then His MESSAGE to all of us is/has been/will be ONE.
......................................................

I TRUST QURAN ONLY BECAUSE IT IS "LOGICAL/REASONABLE" , AND NOT BECAUSE I WAS BORN 'MUSLIM'!

I believe Muslimness is a quality to be cultivated and NOT something one inherits!!!!!

AS A BELIEVER OF ABRAHIMIC RELIGION (ISLAM)I REQUEST YOU TO GIVE A THOUGHT TO WHAT I'M PRESENTING HERE AND IN THE NEXT POST.

*****************************************
1- God has chosen these lines/linage to send his Messengers;

3:33
إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ٱصۡطَفَىٰٓ ءَادَمَ وَنُوحً۬اوَءَالَ إِبۡرَٲهِيمَ وَءَالَ عِمۡرَٲنَ عَلَى ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ
Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures. (33)

2- God has PERFECTED HIS RELIGION by Muhammad s.a.w.

5:3
وَٱخۡشَوۡنِ‌ۚ ٱلۡيَوۡمَ أَكۡمَلۡتُ لَكُمۡ دِينَكُمۡ وَأَتۡمَمۡتُ عَلَيۡكُمۡ نِعۡمَتِى وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ ٱلۡإِسۡلَـٰمَ دِينً۬ا‌ۚ

This day have I 'perfected' your religion for you and 'completed' My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL-ISLAM.

*******************************************


POINTS:

1-How can God interrupt the continuity of the SAME MESSAGE by sending a SON/GOD which infact put a question mark against the VALIDITY OF THE MESSAGE ITSELF and it's CONTINUITY?

2-If you believe in ONE GOD, Obviously you do..because you can't make a SON OF GOD...without believing in GOD Himself...Right...:)
So if you believe in A GOD..of ABRAHAM AND MOSES...I must say then you should be having no reluctance towards ACCEPTING the MESSAGE OF MUHAMMAD s.a.w.

Remember.

2a-.people accepted his message because he was Saadiq and Ameen...(Truthful and Honest/Trustworthy as they used to called him , all his life...)

2b-He invited people to ONE GOD..not to himself.....

2c-Quran's message was for ....Idolators (generally) ...and FOR THOSE (ESPECIALLY) WHO "CALLED" THEMSELVES JEWS AND CHRISTIANS....AND NOT MUSLIMS...BECAUSE THEY MEDDLED WITH THE RELIGION OF GOD=ISLAM..
This is the main reason WHY ...The Quran is FULL of the account of Children of Israel ..and Moses a.s.and Jesus a.s's story.......
and NOT BECAUSE IT'S "TAKEN"/"COPIED" FROM 'THEIR' SCRIPTURES...

Conclusions: Most of the problems are solved..with the use of COMMON SENSE.only (which is not common , my father used to say.....one doesn't have to be highly intellectual or informed.....lol!

BTW..Quran's message is simple to be understood by every ordinary being...
...........................................................

Note:I do not intend to linger on with the same surplus arguments, again..I beg your pardon, now!!!!!!!!!!

Now..you need to UNDERSTAND THE MEANINGS of WHAT is written in there....in a go...

5:12 to 5:19 (quranexplorer.com)

) ۞ وَلَقَدۡ أَخَذَ ٱللَّهُ مِيثَـٰقَ بَنِىٓ إِسۡرَٲٓءِيلَ وَبَعَثۡنَا مِنۡهُمُ ٱثۡنَىۡ عَشَرَ نَقِيبً۬ا‌ۖ وَقَالَ ٱللَّهُ إِنِّى مَعَڪُمۡ‌ۖ لَٮِٕنۡ أَقَمۡتُمُ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتَيۡتُمُ ٱلزَّڪَوٰةَ وَءَامَنتُم بِرُسُلِى وَعَزَّرۡتُمُوهُمۡ وَأَقۡرَضۡتُمُ ٱللَّهَ قَرۡضًا حَسَنً۬ا لَّأُڪَفِّرَنَّ عَنكُمۡ سَيِّـَٔاتِكُمۡ وَلَأُدۡخِلَنَّڪُمۡ جَنَّـٰتٍ۬ تَجۡرِى مِن تَحۡتِهَا ٱلۡأَنۡهَـٰرُ‌ۚ فَمَن ڪَفَرَ بَعۡدَ ذَٲلِكَ مِنڪُمۡ فَقَدۡ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ ٱلسَّبِيلِ (١٢)
فَبِمَا نَقۡضِہِم مِّيثَـٰقَهُمۡ لَعَنَّـٰهُمۡ وَجَعَلۡنَا قُلُوبَهُمۡ قَـٰسِيَةً۬‌ۖ يُحَرِّفُونَ ٱلۡڪَلِمَ عَن مَّوَاضِعِهِۦ‌ۙ وَنَسُواْ حَظًّ۬ا مِّمَّا ذُكِّرُواْ بِهِۦ‌ۚ وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىٰ خَآٮِٕنَةٍ۬ مِّنۡہُمۡ إِلَّا قَلِيلاً۬ مِّنۡہُمۡ‌ۖ فَٱعۡفُ عَنۡہُمۡ وَٱصۡفَحۡ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُحۡسِنِينَ (١٣) وَمِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ قَالُوٓاْ إِنَّا نَصَـٰرَىٰٓ أَخَذۡنَا مِيثَـٰقَهُمۡ فَنَسُواْ حَظًّ۬ا مِّمَّا ذُڪِّرُواْ بِهِۦ فَأَغۡرَيۡنَا بَيۡنَهُمُ ٱلۡعَدَاوَةَ وَٱلۡبَغۡضَآءَ إِلَىٰ يَوۡمِ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ‌ۚ وَسَوۡفَ يُنَبِّئُهُمُ ٱللَّهُ بِمَا ڪَانُواْ يَصۡنَعُونَ (١٤) يَـٰٓأَهۡلَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ قَدۡ جَآءَڪُمۡ رَسُولُنَا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُمۡ ڪَثِيرً۬ا مِّمَّا ڪُنتُمۡ تُخۡفُونَ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ وَيَعۡفُواْ عَن ڪَثِيرٍ۬‌ۚ قَدۡ جَآءَڪُم مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ نُورٌ۬ وَڪِتَـٰبٌ۬ مُّبِينٌ۬ (١٥) يَهۡدِى بِهِ ٱللَّهُ مَنِ ٱتَّبَعَ رِضۡوَٲنَهُ ۥ سُبُلَ ٱلسَّلَـٰمِ وَيُخۡرِجُهُم مِّنَ ٱلظُّلُمَـٰتِ إِلَى ٱلنُّورِ بِإِذۡنِهِۦ وَيَهۡدِيهِمۡ إِلَىٰ صِرَٲطٍ۬ مُّسۡتَقِيمٍ۬ (١٦) لَّقَدۡ ڪَفَرَ ٱلَّذِينَ قَالُوٓاْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ هُوَ ٱلۡمَسِيحُ ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ‌ۚ قُلۡ فَمَن يَمۡلِكُ مِنَ ٱللَّهِ شَيۡـًٔا إِنۡ أَرَادَ أَن يُهۡلِكَ ٱلۡمَسِيحَ ٱبۡنَ مَرۡيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ ۥ وَمَن فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ جَمِيعً۬ا‌ۗ وَلِلَّهِ مُلۡكُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ وَمَا بَيۡنَهُمَا‌ۚ يَخۡلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُ‌ۚ وَٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ قَدِيرٌ۬ (١٧) وَقَالَتِ ٱلۡيَهُودُ وَٱلنَّصَـٰرَىٰ نَحۡنُ أَبۡنَـٰٓؤُاْ ٱللَّهِ وَأَحِبَّـٰٓؤُهُ ۥ‌ۚ قُلۡ فَلِمَ يُعَذِّبُكُم بِذُنُوبِكُم‌ۖ بَلۡ أَنتُم بَشَرٌ۬ مِّمَّنۡ خَلَقَ‌ۚ يَغۡفِرُ لِمَن يَشَآءُ وَيُعَذِّبُ مَن يَشَآءُ‌ۚ وَلِلَّهِ مُلۡكُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ وَمَا بَيۡنَهُمَا‌ۖ وَإِلَيۡهِ ٱلۡمَصِيرُ (١٨) يَـٰٓأَهۡلَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ قَدۡ جَآءَكُمۡ رَسُولُنَا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُمۡ عَلَىٰ فَتۡرَةٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلرُّسُلِ أَن تَقُولُواْ مَا جَآءَنَا مِنۢ بَشِيرٍ۬ وَلَا نَذِيرٍ۬‌ۖ فَقَدۡ جَآءَكُم بَشِيرٌ۬ وَنَذِيرٌ۬‌ۗ وَٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ قَدِيرٌ۬ (١٩)

11) Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve Chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road. (12) And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly. (13) And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork. (14) O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture, (15) Whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guideth them unto a straight path. (16) They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. (17) The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Nay, ye are but mortals of His creating. He forgiveth whom He will, and chastiseth whom He will. Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying. (18) O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you to make things plain unto you after an interval (of cessation) of the messengers, lest ye should say: There came not unto us a messenger of cheer nor any warner. Now hath a messenger of cheer and a warner come unto you. Allah is Able to do all things. (19)

POINTS: Both prominent parties 'MEDDLED WITH' the ORIGINAL MESSAGE OF ALLAH.....hence they were WARNED...

( The concept of different punishments, and Hell and Heaven is not new in Quran, either...)

Some Common Sense Issues:

1- Son of God and Children of GOd means something very different from being 'begotten' sons/children of God..
The term is repeated for different 'people of God' in Bible.

2- On account of taking it on 'physical grounds'...one can ask.."Was Mary a.s (Naouzubillah) ..the WIFE OF GOD?????????????

3-Resurrection of Jesus a.s. in New Testment CANNOT be compared to the Resurrection in it's actual sense...you already know it...medically/bilogically..compared to SPIRTUAL and then Our FINAL STATE OF RESSURECTION on the day of Judgment.
Jesus became conscious again and showed his wounds of the same old body..( on hands and on ribs most probably, as a result of piercing from the Roman soldier's arrow (whatever).. he ate also..as far as I remember..
He was taken down ..after a short period of time..and might had gone into a state of coma..for sure..

4-I feel if God was so concerned for his only son's resurrection..why did he let him die on the cross...so miserably to bring dishonor to him forever (according to you)..(addition 'Mul-oon' means Cursed according to Old Testment)
or..
Why was he not raised from the cross right away, after his death...to teach a lesson to the disbelievers..after his death on cross..? (according to New Testment)


5- You said 500 people observed the incident of Jesus being taken into the Heaven..and probably sitting on God' right hand...
So were some Jews there too...who witnessed the incident..?
Does your God have a RIGHT HAND?

6- You said the presence of an Apostle himself is a document..that he was there...that's what we believe in..too
Muhammad was there...to REVIVE THE TRUE RELIGION OF ABRAHIM'S GOD.

7- Quran was not only written at the time of the prophet of Islam...but was MEMORIZED ...God promised to keep it 'UNCHANGED'
It's a profoud MIRACLE in itself that Quran is still being MEMORISED..by Hafizeen..This is the TRUTH OF THE MESSAGE ALLAH HAS GIVEN IT.

It will remain THE SAME till the end of this world Inshallah!

PEACE!

.........................................................
(made some corrections in this and previous posts)

To NKingston!

Wa alaikum Assalam

Thanks for the encouragment.Jazakallah!

Points:

1- No one is PERFECT. Peace!

2- It's not necessary to 'dissect' the Ayaat when it's meaning is CLEAR to the person ....on account of available resources online.

3- Analysis of any given Ayat of Quran shoulb be done if necessary , keeping the rule of 'surgery' not dissection...'the patient must survive'.....lol!

patient = meaning/perspective

4-We should NOT lower oursleves morally and should remain humble yet FIRM, through out.It's the Religion of God not ours..We strive for God not for ourselves.
( I don't appreciate the American 'style' of abuse..it takes away the strength/spirit of the debate.We can simply avoid the transgressors (crossing the limits of decency of speech..)
There's no reason for personal attacks..we all are different...and diversity is divine...someone said..)

5- The insult to Quran /Muhammad should not be accepted, at all. The argument must be ceased.

Thanks

.................

I'll discuss the other perspective of your request too..wait..

Hi NK!

The Ayat I'm quoting down here shows that a COVENANT of Loyality and Faithfulness was taken from Muhaaamd s.a.w
also just like other Messengers of Allah....

33:7 and 8

وَإِذۡ أَخَذۡنَا مِنَ ٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ مِيثَـٰقَهُمۡ وَمِنكَ وَمِن نُّوحٍ۬ وَإِبۡرَٲهِيمَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَى ٱبۡنِ مَرۡيَمَ‌ۖ وَأَخَذۡنَا مِنۡهُم مِّيثَـٰقًا غَلِيظً۬ا

عَذَابًا أَلِيمً۬ا لِّيَسۡـَٔلَ ٱلصَّـٰدِقِينَ عَن صِدۡقِهِمۡ‌ۚ وَأَعَدَّ لِلۡكَـٰفِرِينَعَذَابًا أَلِيمً۬ا
And when We exacted a covenant from the prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary. We took from them a solemn covenant; (7) That He may ask the loyal of their loyalty. And He hath prepared a painful doom for the unfaithful.

On account of this Covenant..Muhammad's Ummah is obliged to be 'Strictly Loyal and Faithful' to the FINAL MESSAGE OF ALLAH.

Now if you have gone through my posts above where I quoted the a similar reminder of Allah mentioned in Quran for Children of Israel (Jews and Christians)....It is CLEARLY MENTIONED what has/has been happened/happening to them as a consequence of meddling with Allah's True Religion...

Now I feel the sufferings of Muslims of today is a PROOF that 'their' 'Religion' is NOT BEING APPROVED BY ALLAH...so there are disputes and divisions, killing.... and other afflictions...etc..

Correct me if I'm wrong in this interpretation...! (don't give me a lecture , again...lol,thanks)

I only know people who seek the Truth find it...God is everyone's....

Keep telling Muslims that they should turn to Quran, Only, and must abandon their Haithee/Traditional grounds which are contradictory to Quran/Muhammad's Personality...and 'common sense'..of-course...:)

Leave the rest to Allah!

Peace!

Nono,
I am not sure what you mean by the following:
1> You are just sheer stupidity incarnate. What does this sentence mean? “Stupidity Incarnate??
2>You're an idiot. Isn’t that nice!
3>You're a hypocrite. The pot calling the kettle Black!
4>You're a grasshopper. Whats this a Kung Fu proverb?
5> You are a son of the father of all lies. I am not old enough for this to be true.
6>You are "Lucifer's Faithful Servant." I say to you, "Get the hence, Satan!" OH! Now I am shaking in my boots!!!

One thing I am sure of is your indifference to the Koran. You have no right to question the veracity of the documents of the new testament unless you disagree with your prophet Mohomet who stated in the Koran that anyone who does is an wandering away from the truth,.
238 ff The CORÂN
He is cautioned against the neglect or disbelief of it, lest he incur the "ignominious punishment (عذاباً مهيناً) which God hath prepared for the unbelievers," for them "that believe in a part and reject a part" of God's word.—Art. CII. He is warned against refusing to acknowledge that "perspicuous Book," which is "a light to lighten mankind, a guide and a direction, an admonition to the pious,—to them that fear the Lord in secret and tremble at the hour of judgment";—that Revelation which is "complete as to whatever is excellent, and an explanation of every matter, and a mercy, that men may believe in the meeting of their Lord"; for if he does thus reject it, according to the verdict of his own Prophet, "verily he hath wandered into a wide and fatal error," قد ضل ضلالاً بعيداً . Above all let him beware of blaspheming (like some of the degenerate Mussulmans of the present day) that holy Book, and of thus sealing his doom as "a transgressing and flagitious Unbeliever."—Art. CXXIV.


Lastly; all honest Moslems are called on to believe, for they cannot consistently disbelieve, that these Scriptures are the inspired "Word of God" (كلام الله) "that they are a light to lighten Mankind," (نوراً وهدى للناس) "an illumination and admonition to the Pious" (ضياً وذكراً للمتقين); in fine, that they are calculated to lead those that follow their precepts into the way of peace, and make them wise unto salvation. Why, then, will they neglect so precious a source of spiritual benefit as (the Corân itself being judge) exists in the Old and New Testaments, and shut themselves out from their illumination? Let them search the Scriptures diligently, and they will find the whole tenor of those sacred Books to be "that God is in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself";— that Jesus is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life"; "This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent."

Mike

To:As-salaamu alay-kum, Sister Silent!

Who are you? I am not sure if you are nono or his sister.

As far as you post goes i will need more imput on what you asking me.

My ideas are rather evolutionary. If that is of interest to you I can be more open.

My concern in theology is with controversial issues dealing with Grace and free will.

Mike

To whom Am I Writing?
You are asking the following:
1-How can God interrupt the continuity of the SAME MESSAGE by sending a SON/GOD which infact put a question mark against the VALIDITY OF THE MESSAGE ITSELF and it's CONTINUITY?

2-If you believe in ONE GOD, Obviously you do..because you can't make a SON OF GOD...without believing in GOD Himself...Right...:)
So if you believe in A GOD..of ABRAHAM AND MOSES...I must say then you should be having no reluctance towards ACCEPTING the MESSAGE OF MUHAMMAD s.a.w.


#1> Jesus was sent before Mohemet was he not? As i see it the message was complete and not in need of any futher clarification.

#2>What is you take on the trinity? What are we to make of statements that christ made like," I and my father are one". or " He who has seen me has seen the father", and " The works that I do is the father who works in me". There are more but what do you think about these statements of christ?
Mike

Re: the post that starts out as follows.

To MVastano/Mike!

There's just ONE Mathemetical certianity....
-----
That post was on the mark, and, furthermore, it was very well outlined! You presented very valid points and it was very much in line with the Spirit and Word of Allah throughout time. Too bad you and others of like mind don't live near Lancaster, CA, where I live. I would like to meet up with more Muslims like yourself.

Are there any Mulsims here who want to meet up with my wife and me? My wife needs Muslim sisters to show her what Islam means to a Muslimah and to learn to feed her husband kosher. Who knows, maybe she will embrace Islam someday.

Nono

Re: the post that starts out as follows.

POINTS: Both prominent parties 'MEDDLED WITH' the ORIGINAL MESSAGE OF ALLAH.....hence they were WARNED...

( The concept of different punishments, and Hell and Heaven is not new in Quran, either...)
-----
You bring up a very interesting point when you ask:

2- On account of taking it on 'physical grounds'...one can ask.."Was Mary a.s (Naouzubillah) ..the WIFE OF GOD?????????????

This would mean that if God and Mary were never married, then God is an adulterer. That makes the God of the Christians the God of adultery. If God can do it, does it make it right for Christians who by virtue of their whole existence support this belief to do it also?
-----
Another point of interest to me is your inquiry as follows:

4-I feel if God was so concerned for his only son's resurrection..why did he let him die on the cross...so miserably to bring dishonor to him forever (according to you)..
or..
Why was he not raised from the cross right away, after his death...to teach a lesson to the disbelievers..after his death on cross..? (according to New Testment)

The thing about the dishonor aspect comes from the Torah itself, the Sciptures that Jesus preached from and practiced.

22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Deut 21:22-23 (KJV)

With Christians preaching their beliefs from the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, are they dishonoring Jesus by believing that he died on a cross which was also referred to in those days as a tree also?

The other aspect of this point comes from the New Testament.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15:34 (KJV)

Why would the son of God be forsaken and left to die on the cross? Isn't that a form of Christian blasphemy?
-----
Another interesting point you presented.

5- You said 500 people observed the incident of Jesus being taken into the Heaven..and probably sitting on God' right hand... So were some Jews there too...who witnessed the incident..? Does your God have a RIGHT HAND?

Because it was the Sadduccee sect administrators responsible for the assumed crucifixion of Jesus, in a city that was predominantly Jewish, like 99%, the whole audience must have been Jews, but why would Jews reject the fundamental concepts of Christianity if it has any merit to rest upon? The basis for the Jewish rejection of Christianity has everything to do with the blasphemy presented "on behalf" of Jesus according to the very Scriptures Jesus taught from. Their rejection of Jesus would have been valid had it not been based on false allegations.
-----
Your post is intelligently presented and extremely thought provoking. That's all good. You've got noggins hard at work and I like that.

Nono

To Whom It May Concern:
.......................

MVantano is trying to sail in TWO BOATS , at the SAME TIME..

He calls himself 'evolutionary'...and doesn't know that such 'evolutionary theories' like the one Darwin represented..are proven 'wrong' after 'blinded' people come out of the darkness of their deluded minds and fascinations.

The final abode of such adventurers..will be 'drowning' down the dark depth of an abyss of self-obsession...Inshallah!

This man is so predudiced that he can't even write the correct name of our prophet nor of the final divine message to mankind...

Yet,

He never forgets to refer to both...what a contradiction...!!!

Does he deserve respect now?????

He loves and worship 'a figure' and has forgotten the REAL GOD, because of his 'Mythical Religion' which even seems to be contradictory to the book he trusts called the 'New Testment'.
He is inventing his own Ideas on account of a person who used to speak in "parables"...definitely it's not possible for such an Idolators to reach the 'true meanings' of 'worship' and 'obedience'...at all!

It seems Christains of today are lost in the words like, Spirit,Word,Flesh,Blood,Lamb,Sheep,Goat,Father,Son ....etc..because they are trying to catch these words into a litrary net..which they never can......and that's the reason that they have erected another 'castle of rituals' after the one broken down by the REAL Man Of God-called JESUS!

Pity!

Mike:
I am not sure what you mean by the following:
1> You are just sheer stupidity incarnate. What does this sentence mean? “Stupidity Incarnate??
Response: Do you own or have access to a dictionary?

2>You're an idiot. Isn’t that nice!
Response: You have any doubts?

3>You're a hypocrite. The pot calling the kettle Black!
Response: You think? What's wrong with that?

4>You're a grasshopper. Whats this a Kung Fu proverb?
Response: That's a Japanese way of saying, you're like an annoying bug that makes noises in the night, hops aimlessly around by day, but acts upon what comes natural to him without having any real intelligence. Read your posts, and you should appreciate what I mean even more.

5> You are a son of the father of all lies. I am not old enough for this to be true.
Response: Then how can Jesus be the only begotten son of God?

6>You are "Lucifer's Faithful Servant." I say to you, "Get the hence, Satan!" OH! Now I am shaking in my boots!!!
Response: If you believe in Jesus, as you claim, but insist on making the unfounded claims and allegations you make, then you should be. Otherwise, you are indeed nothing more and nothing less than a) a son of the father of all lies and b) "Lucifer's Faithful Servant." Evidence demands a verdict, so cross examine me as I encourage you to do throughout all my posts to you so far.

You wrote:
One thing I am sure of is your indifference to the Koran. You have no right to question the veracity of the documents of the new testament unless you disagree with your prophet Mohomet who stated in the Koran that anyone who does is an wandering away from the truth,.

Response: I am obviously not indifferent toward the Qur'an, but your false claim warrants no merit as many things you have said so far.

As for my questioning the veracity of the New Testament, the New Testament did not exist at the time the Qur'an was revealed. There were many documents circulating among the various types of Christians until around the 1600s, but because you admitted to your knowledge of the coming about of the New Testament you further support my case against you as being a) a son of the father of all lies and b) "Lucifer's Faithful Servant." By all definitions that exist of these two identifications I apply to you, if the shoe fits... The New Testament is not what Prophet Muhammad spoke of when he mentioned the Injil, the gospel. The gospel mentioned is the gospel of Allah. The New Testament has no basis for being called Scripture any more than the volumes of Celestine Prophecies.

You wrote: "Lastly; all honest Moslems are called on to believe, for they cannot consistently disbelieve, that these Scriptures are the inspired "Word of God"..."

Response: Just like a) a son of the father of all lies and b) "Lucifer's Faithful Servant" you take the truth and twist it and abuse the Word of God by taking it out of context. You know just as well as I do that there is a Judgment Day. See you there!

This is how Quran Reports on what God's Spirit and Spirits can mean..'ROOH'

32:9 He shaped him and blew into him from HIS SPIRIT. And He gave you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brains; rarely are you thankful.

15:28 Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. 15:29 "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from MY SPIRIT, you shall fall prostrate before him."

21:91 As for the one who maintained her virginity, we blew into her from OUR SPIRIT, and thus, we made her and her son a portent for the whole world.

[78:38] The day will come when 'the Spirit' and the angels will stand in a row. None will speak except those permitted by the Most Gracious, and they will utter only what is right.

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If Incarnated god (according to MV) was required on earth at a 'specific time' only, then 'what will happen' to those people who passed away before knowing that god of him?

Will they be waiting outside the Heaven of Real God or will be sent to Hell for not coming 'through' his incranated form of god?

Are you not becoming too possessive on account of your-self-made-god?

You guys are certainly making a fuss/mess...by turning a DIRECT relation of HUMANTO GOD into ...and INDIRECT obligation which is fictitious!

Obviously you didn't read the above posts...5:17,18

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Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, the son of Mary. Say, "Who could oppose GOD if He willed to annihilate the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother, and everyone on earth?" To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them. He creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent.

5:18 The Jews and the Christians said, "We are GOD's children and His beloved." Say, "Why then does He punish you for your sins? You are just humans like the other humans He created." He forgives whomever He wills and punishes whomever He wills. To GOD belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, and to Him is the final destiny
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1-PAGANS are those who say Messiah -the son of Mary is God..He could be 'a god' to some who call themselves 'Christians'
2-Quran refutes their claim that their Messiah died for their SINS..that's why they all are exempted from any punishments..

They certainly have over-estimated them-selves..and have for saken GOD-OF ALL HUMANS...
That's why they did what ignorants do...
Did they follow the message of Messaih??????
Are they not being PUNISHED?

I've combined the two posts together (above)

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Quran came to CORRECT Christians after 600 years, that
1- No! they are not the only chosen people
2-Their Christianity is a not the 'real religion' of God
Better be aware what Allah is going to ask your god on the day of judgment, and how he will reply....
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5:116
And when ALLAH will say, `O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, `Take me and my mother for two gods beside ALLAH ?' he will answer, `Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone WHO art the Knower of all hidden things;

5:117 `I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship ALLAH, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things
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I will discuss it seperately under the topic I've started about 'Second-Coming-Of Jesus"...to clear the perspective of Quran-The un-changed Verdict of Allah..Inshallah..

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According to New Testment:

1- No one knows actually what happened to their god, who told them that he will have to 'search for his lost sheep'
John, Luke , Mathew and Mark have differences ...in end...don't want to argue....

They might wanted to save the life of 'resurrected god' by telling the enemies that 'he vanished'...haha ....the god was at the mercy of his people...

Q: Did he fullfil his promise defore his death?

2- He warned his people, he will come...after many false claimants of prophethood in his name...

Q:a Why would anyone on earth'claim'to be 'him' ..if he's supposed to come down from the sky?
Q:b Why he called himself 'Son Of Man'there..."AN INTENTIONAL MISTAKE" ?

Definitely he meant "a time of revival of the religion" will show the SIGNS of divine help refering to the sky..
like the flash of lightening from East to West.....another PARABLE/PUZZLE for dumbs.(sorry you asked for it because you are not stopping your mischief..but you claim to go with Freewill and Grace..Why should I believe you?)

I do expect clear answers from MV but I just want to suggest that yes...such revivals take place in REAL through godly people called Mujaddadeen in Islam...probably reformers/saints in your religion...

Reply to the post that begins with:

To:As-salaamu alay-kum, Sister Silent!

Who are you? I am not sure if you are nono or his sister.
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Mike:

There's not much to ask you because you apparently don't know much. Read your posts, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

As for your ideas being rather evolutionary, that's funny. I have no interest in your so-called evolutionary ideas because you make claims, allegations, and assumptions that conflict with what you say. I am, however, interested in your ideas that bear good fruit, that have a point whether I agree with you or not, and that have merit. Your ideas so far are far from evolutionary; they represent a lack of intelligence; they represent ignorance; and the truth be told is seen as an attack on your character when what you claim, allege, and assume, are only attacks you make against your own character. I'm not interested in those types of ideology. You need to get at least a little educated. Read your posts, brother, and you'll see that I am not being disrespectful, but I just call the kettle black.

Your concerns in theology are not necessarily controversial; they are baseless, ignorant, and an attack on your literacy and level of intelligence by you and only by you. If this was not true, you would demonstrate in your posts that you know what you are talking about without requiring ad homonem against those who show you the truth in order for you to justify your claims.

I admit that I don't know everything, but I do know that wherever there is a claim, to maintain a status of fact, it requires just as much evidence; other wise, it's just either theory or opinion.

Peace out, brother.

Nono